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Sam: This is Sam from the that was genius podcast. Just to let you know that what you're about to listen to is the pilot episode. It was recorded before we really knew what we were doing, and we were just trying things out a little bit. That means that unfortunately, it was just recorded over Skype, which means that the sound quality isn't really up to our usual excellent standards. It also means that we I'm in are a little bit more than we do later on. So with that in mind, please don't judge us too harshly on it. It was just the first. Anyway. I'm going to stop making excuses now, so enjoy the show. I'm ready. You ready? Tom?

Tom: I was born ready.

Sam: Excellent. It's time for another episode. Off Possibly called. That was genius, possibly called something to do with boys and history. Possibly working title. Pythagoras didn't eat beans. It's the pilot episode. Who inserts party sound effect? Nice. Nothing anticlimactic about that at all. For anyone who ever hears this, it may or may not go out. It may or may not be released in public. This is the pilot episode of your now favorite podcast being recorded in what is in the U. K. A very cold and grey January day on What is I predict in New Zealand? A wonderful summer's evening. I still don't believe that the earth is round. By the way, this is purely a trick of the light.

Tom: Excellent. Good. Why? I don't take vaccinations either. So Hee, I think we're I think we're perfect match

Sam: That explains so much. Eso welcome to the as yet unnamed We love history Podcast. The concept is simple. Each week we set ourselves a topic or a theme this week it's historical figures on. Then we take it in turns to amaze each other with something that we've never heard before. Hopefully, yeah. Interruptions completely allowed. Swearing Fucking a ah nde More or less anything goes.

Tom: Hey, Iceland. I like it good. Who wants

Sam: to know who's going to start today? Should we flip a coin or shall I just randomly assigned one of us to go first?

Tom: Now let's flip the coin.

Sam: Let's flip the coin, Okay?

Tom: Yeah, Ferris way.

Sam: And we are both obviously subjects of Her Majesty the Queen. So it's all fair play actually

Tom: didn't use even coins.

Sam: Half queens on the head.

Tom: Good question. I think they do, actually. Only she's still head of state here. Yes, there. Definitely. So. Head of state. So I think you're right. Yeah. We do have the queen on our coins. I love

Sam: that you've lived in New Zealand for what, four years now? And we still don't know what the coins looked like.

Tom: I know. And I think that's more of a statement of modern society. Really? Isn't you know, plastic society s? Oh, no, I have no idea. I can't. I don't even have any coins near me to find out what I could tell you what my credit card looks like.

Sam: Yeah. All right, let's be modern and flip a credit card. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna flip the coin. Are you calling heads or tails? Tom,

Tom: I'm gonna heads.

Sam: You're going heads. Courtney's landed. It's heads. You win,

Tom: you go first. Go on. Sam. Off.

Sam: Well, I've prepared. I prepared some music for this, which you're not gonna be able to hear because of the way we've set this up. But I've got some good kind of slightly slightly west. Any proud music going on in the background here. Beautiful. There we go on today I am going to talk to you about what I think is very loud. There we go, slightly less patriotic today. I am going to talk to you about a lovely young man called Leo. Measure a k A forced measure A k a. Hell hath no fury like an angry Canadian.

Tom: Excellent. Excellent. And how do you spell his name? I mean, you're you're pronouncing it like it's a slur. How do you spell his name? Well,

Sam: he is. Leo Majer is French. Canadian, So it's spelt Leo Major. Okay, but there's a kind of a little hat on the right that isn't even e in his name, actually is a little hat somewhere. It's pronounced French Lee

Tom: French? Yes. In a French manner. I might start pronouncing John Major's name like that. John joined Malaysia,

Sam: Or, um what? The French footballers? T erry Ari? Yes, Terry Henry

Tom: Telly had yet Absolutely yes, said Leo measure

Sam: Leo Maja, who was born in 1921 Thio French Canadian parents and grew up in Montreal. Or so, as you can imagine, by his name, this is a story of heroism in a world war to

Tom: help you tell me.

Sam: Well, like a lot of people, he didn't get on with his dad and he decided he

Tom: was. Oh, no, no, no. It's not a Freudian, Sam. It is by becoming psychologist way.

Sam: No, let's gloss over it and move swiftly on like some people he didn't get on with his dad on, DSO ran away and joined the army, went to go and have an adventure on Fight the Nazis and give the Bosch good old washing that that sounded better in my head than it came out of the US. Kick up the ass for old, for old adult on. And sure enough, in 1940 he joined the Army on Dhe was present at D Day in 1944 landing with Canadian troops. Onda. He pretty quickly made a name for himself, just among his peers to begin with, because a couple of days later, he single handedly captured a German army vehicle packed with codes and German radio equipment. He did very well. He didn't die, and then he did something special. This was the first level of call of duty Canada, if you like

Tom: in call of duty. Do you get, like bosses at the end of every level, like in Super Mario? Uh oh. I don't

Sam: know. I've never I've never played call of duty.

Tom: No. And I haven't had a computer game since. About 1995. It's un imagining a giant mushroom or something.

Sam: We shall see. We'll find out later in the story, but I might drop the computer game analogy. Go. Sort of neither of us having a fucking clue.

Tom: Yeah, Yeah. Good call.

Sam: Yeah, he's done very well. They're already very proud of old Leo. However, all took a turn for the worse. Because several days later, in his first fight with the feared SS, he lost an eye when he single handedly took on an entire patrol of SS and one of them threw a grenade at him.

Tom: It's quite all right. I mean, that's quite arrogant, isn't it? Done? It's with one hand. I mean,

Sam: with the other one behind his back.

Tom: Come on. Yet, Nazis, I'll take you on one handed. Look, I'm hoping I'm hoping

Sam: it might well have been just Yeah, I'm imagining something a little bit like cement. Yeah. Yeah. So for a few days into D Day, he's established himself as an accomplished sniper and scout, but he's lost an eye in a battle with the SS. Most people at this point would be sent home is not much you can do with one eye. In war, you need to be able to look around. But he said, No, no, I'm a sniper. Only need one eye to look down the scope of my rifle. Well, slap a pirate's patch on Andi. I will head right back out there because this guy, this guy's tough. So anyway, you've got this pirate Canadian running around northern France now, generally causing causing bother. But his big break came in 1944 at the Battle of Zeeland in Belgium and the Netherlands on after being sent out to find a whole company of new recruits who just gone missing on his own, by the way, because his usual power, who is called and we shall not laugh of the dead but was called Willy Arsenal, Willie asked. Really, Arsenal,

Tom: I'm imagining a big warehouse full of explosives. Deal does

Sam: now. I was just thinking of a massive weapon. That's nice. Anyway, he usually went out with this guy called Willy Arsenal, but Willie Arsenal was poorly sick. Willie. So I'm gonna stop with the Willy jokes. I'm not going to stop with the jokes. So Leo went out on his tod to find an entire missing regular time missing company of Canadian soldiers. It's wet. It's cold. He's had to cross the canal whilst evading the Germans. He's really pissed off. So alone in the rain and the mud, he spots to Germans walking along. And he says, Quote unquote, you're not gonna be walking for much longer. Yes, he has catchphrases now.

Tom: It's very threatening. That was the year. It's a very threatening thing to say, wasn't it?

Sam: That is very threatening. Being a Canadian, he was kind of nice about it. Rather than kill them, he he captured one as you do, being alone behind enemy lines and then use the one he captured to lure the other one and capture him as well on da. So here he is. He's behind enemy lines. He's in an

Tom: sorry how do you use another soldier to lure another soldier?

Sam: I expect? He asked himto whistle feminine Lee in German,

Tom: Yeah, be protected

Sam: as a beautiful frown like hiding around the corner, you

Tom: know, Law. Sorry. You're looking very strong. Oh, handsome. Oh, why don't you come in here and see Bush Muddy Bush? Why not show me your pistol? Yes. Coming to this dark. And Ali, you official above your head, I find it especially sex. Even

Sam: men fall because the

Tom: handrail, I think that's exactly how it happened.

Sam: The sources are sources of somewhat vague about the exactly happening carry on. So, yes. So he catches these two German soldiers. He's behind enemy lines in an enemy occupied town. What do you do, Tom? What do you do? I'll tell you what you do, Tom. You say to them Hey, you two captured German soldiers. Take me to your officer. I'm going to force the entire town to give up, which is mad on Dhe Brave on Dhe. He

Tom: must have been incredibly

Sam: charismatic because they did on the officer did indeed give up the entire town.

Tom: Maybe it maybe Liam Azure threatened the soldiers with telling them the senior how he'd captured those two is that if you if you don't take me to your leader, I'll tell him how I caught you both pretend one of you is a dirty little German lady. And they were like, Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. There's some embarrassing

Sam: shit rumbled. Yeah,

Tom: Yeah. All right. You okay? We'll take you. Just don't tell anyone

Sam: anyway. The German officer, for some reason with a single Canadian in his town demanding his surrender, the German officer in his entire garrison of 100 men gave up Di temple. They gave up and they surrendered to Leo on his own.

Tom: Just like that.

Sam: Just like that, Literally. Just like that. On DSO Leo starts marching these guys back through the town Bastard s s show up again, Don't it home. Ah, I know those wankers. So what do they do? They start shooting at them. And faced with Mirage, it is very rude face with a barrage of machine gun bullets, alone with 100 Germans who were getting shot at and are now quite scared, I imagine Leo just soldiers on. He marches them through the machine gun, fire through the town on back to the Canadian lines. 93 of the German survive and he single handedly gets back with the Germans, not with the Canadians. he was sent out to find mind, but with quite a lot of Germans instead.

Tom: Do we know what happened to the Canadians? Actually, we

Sam: don't. I did look into this, and I think they were. They were eventually rescued, but they have been captured and taken off to a prisoner of war camp. They weren't anywhere near, but the Germans who captured them pretty quickly gave up. I think they knew the time had come

Tom: when you saw Leo measure walking over the horizon. You have been like, What the fuck? Here he comes. One little raise of the eyebrow. Well, surrendering. Absolutely. Don't look him in the eye.

Sam: Only does. He's just a finger. Guns and building style. Private Ryan style. Oh, Anyway, for this particular act of heroism, slash stupidity. He was ordered a field decoration or offertory feel decoration by Field Marshal Montgomery, which he refused because he thought Montgomery was an incompetent, pompous ass. Fair enough. So another example of another example of his bad Astorino only did he hate the Germans? He also hated Monty. So we come to we come down to the interval in this story on it's important this interval It really outlines Just what a ridiculous, ridiculous guy Leo Waas there was a soldier cover was Jack Churchill, Mad Jack Churchill, who stormed D Day, where with a sword instead of a gun, and was the only recorded man in World War two to kill someone with a bow and arrow. And he is in. Leo is in this level of bad ass, sorry slash 19 forties madness in accepting eccentricity. So anyway, the few months passed on Dhe. He's driving along in an armored car, driving a chaplain along with a load of dead German soldiers in the back on and he hits a mine and the vehicle is completely destroyed. It's blown up. He's thrown tens of meters from the wreckage. Andi, He wakes up in a field hospital on Dhe. He's told that he's broken his back in three places. Sis, he's broken both of his ankles on. He's broken several ribs, and the war is now definitely definitely over for him. He'll probably not be walking again for months, and I'll probably always have problems. So what did he do? He stayed in hospital for precisely a week, and then he hitched a lift in his passing Jeep on went AWOL and him with a Dutch family for a month until he felt better on Dhe, then went back to his unit. So he had a total of five weeks off work with a back broken in three places and two shattered ankles. And then he was he was back being a bad ass again.

Tom: Core of old occupational health. Say about that, what they believe, you know, two weeks off, and then you can do two hours of being a bad ass today for the first couple of weeks and then probably third or fourth week, he can start doing part days, half days, being a bad ass,

Sam: light, bad ass. Hurry, though, just like

Tom: yet. And yet none of that single handed stuff use both hands. Don't brand. That's wet. And then maybe after a couple of months, you go unit back into it full swing. I think that's what occupational health would say. Yeah,

Sam: I think I think so. But, you know, you only get two weeks of full sick pay, and then you go down to 1/2 and you had a lifestyle to maintain. Yep, yep. Benny, wait. He's back with his guys. And so we come to kind of the grand finale of Leo Major story. And this was single handedly capturing an entire city on his own, launching a full one man invasion.

Tom: Where was it? What's that? He was

Sam: this. This is completely true. It is the Dutch city of Smaller, which I'm definitely pronouncing wrong. Pretty sure the Dutch would just look at me like a madman if I said pull over to them.

Tom: I think I know where. I don't know where it is on a map, but it starts with it said in the W, doesn't it?

Sam: It does. Yeah. It z W u double l e. You

Tom: know what common letter combination in the English language. I can see why you'd struggle.

Sam: I've Googled it. And I've listen to a Google text to speech thing and God said it's pronounced his vote borns. What we That's what we're going with. It is April 1945. The war is pretty close to being over and Canadian forces are approaching the Dutch city of all. They are ready for the assault, The big guns, the artillery a lined up, ready to assault the city next morning with a huge barrage on DDE Leo and Willie Arsenal. Still, bank will ease back. Yeah. What? He's back. He's back! Back again. Will ease back. Tell us.

Tom: Because this is what is his best friend was a arsenal were best friend.

Sam: Willie Willie was his best friend.

Tom: Do you have any other friends?

Sam: Many. He was a pop was a very popular man.

Tom: Funny Hot spur Or join the Chelsea Fanny Hot spur. I find it funny.

Sam: We're both in our thirties. Thio, you're interrupting my story of heroism. Tom!

Tom: Sorry. Sorry

Sam: with its gynaecological slang Premier League Football club. Carry on. Sorry. Fight! Find your war hero name. Hey! Yeah, your Griff little slang And at your football team to the

Tom: o share in tag you monkey! I'm

Sam: your gut slinging villa

Tom: Penis postman! Oh my God! They're 70 opportunities! Oh, Vulva, Villa! Like Oh, good snatch way, Lady Garden Thistle! I think you need to read out the scores like it's my united five. If you really ask no one Funny Chelsea too.

Sam: Oh, no cock city to flaps town for

Tom: Oh, how long has this taken upon the process? Now

Sam: let's carry on some But not all of that's getting edited out. Uh

Tom: oh. There is.

Sam: So Leo, Leo and Willie leave their leave their friends and start heading towards the town hall Very shortly afterwards, they come across the road block. The Germans opened fire, and Willie is killed. Willie is no more. No more, Willie.

Tom: No more really

Sam: know anymore, Tom. Ah. Anyway, Leo, at this point sees red. The red mist descends and he goes full on Die hard, Absolutely full on King. Die hard. He picks up with his machine gun, takes out this German roadblock, steals their machine gun. Andi, He still got his own gun in his back as well. And he heads into town. Three machine guns strapped on his back for hot sized.

Tom: This is Rambo

Sam: is properly Rambo. He just decides, right? It's game time. He's going to liberate this city on his own. He's gonna do the job. So what do you liberate first on your liberating a city, Tom?

Tom: I don't know.

Sam: You liberate the pub, Tom,

Tom: I like that. Is that a logistical requirement? Is that you know? Is that what they teach triplets? Sandringham? Yes. I don't think it is. Okay. Okay. There must be a reason, but get

Sam: hearts and minds.

Tom: Oh, yes, yes, Yes, I see what you mean. Okay,

Sam: so anyway, he goes into a nearby bar. There's a German officer drinking in there on Dhe. He proceeds to capture this officer.

Tom: Hold on. Is this German officer been told his wall is under attack? No. The off duty. Just having a drink.

Sam: He's just having a drink in a bar.

Tom: Okay, Enough. Okay,

Sam: so So Leo catches this guy and says the Canadians are coming. I'm the fourth party. The Canadians are coming. You've got two options. You can come with May. Or you can go and tell all of your mates that the Canadians are coming. There's gonna massive artillery barrage coming your way very soon. Leave the city run away on the German who, it turns out, speaks French as well as Leo does. Being French, Canadian, the German says Okay, I'll go and let my mates No, we'll leave the city. We don't really want to fight. The war is pretty much over. And so, Leo, let's and go. As a sign of goodwill even gives him his gun back. And so nice. This German runs off through the streets, starting to sow panic. Onda Leo does the same. So he runs through the streets of the town, firing his machine gun blindly into the sky, yelling, shouting, making as much noise as possible as you do when you're in a fully occupied enemy city on your own. Started lobbing grenades around the corner and into dark alleyways. Every Germany comes across, he captures marches out of the city, delivers to the Canadians and then picks up more ammunition and grenades, goes back into the city and starts again, which he does about 10 times over the course of the night. He just makes loads of noise, scares the shit out of the Germans, captured loads of them, takes them out, gives him two Canadians, goes back in, rinse and repeat. He only stopped to launch a full frontal one man assault on the SS headquarters because he really didn't like the SS on in the process, foiling a plot to infiltrate the Dutch resistance. He contacts the Dutch resistance, gets in touch with them and tells them what he's doing and that the Germans are gonna abandon The city is making a shit ton of noise. And sure enough, by nine o'clock the next morning, the city is completely abandoned. He's captured dozens of Germans, and he's able to walk back to the Canadian lines in time for breakfast. The attacks called off. Guys, don't worry about it. I've sorted it single handedly captured an entire city from the Germans.

Tom: Why has this not been made into a film

Sam: it has in Canada? But it's It's really well known among the Canadian military and French speaking parts of Canada on DDE in the towns of all, where quite a few streets named after him. But he's absolutely unknown everywhere else. It's just one of those stories of heroism that's been kind of slightly lost over the years. He was given the Distinguished Conduct Medal, one of only a couple of Commonwealth soldiers to receive it for his actions. And if that isn't enough, he went back for in the Korean War on Got a second distinguished conduct medal for capturing a hill from the North Korean single handedly. He died in 2003. What an absolute lad on what I like.

Tom: Wow, what did the Koreans know? Because presumably they would have just backed off had they know,

Sam: I think, when they heard that polite Canadian coming with this figure powered

Tom: hey and his little eyes squinting and it's it's broken ankles a limp in

Sam: T Eat it. That says, there's definitely needs to be a ballad about this guy, doesn't it? Yeah. Um, I let myself in playing some banjo afterwards. Little olio Democrats go. Hey, ill. One ankle in plaster. The other welcome. Still

Tom: as beautiful as that was stirred my soul

Sam: in the film version of this Liam Neeson needs to play him. I guess that's really amazing character.

Tom: Yes, I think you're right. Yeah, just subtle it subtly and modestly badass. Yeah, absolutely. They wouldn't work. Tom. Cruise agency loves himself too much. That wouldn't work.

Sam: What he brings to the party is the bad history of taken combined yet with the subtle tenderness of love. Actually,

Tom: yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Which always cause he's the one with the sun in love actually isn't a peers. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's a great combination. That

Sam: is the story of Leo. Major Tom

Tom: over. Very nice. I did enjoy that, Sam. I'd never heard of him before, so that's fascinating. He also stands nicely in contrast to the person that I chose to talk about. So this chap is called Quintus Fabius Maximus. Very coast sis on Dhe Maximum

Sam: Veruca as he will be remembered.

Tom: Well, Sam, you have. You have jumped ahead of yourself

Sam: that's already attracted. Edit out.

Tom: No, no, no. That's what We'll come back to that who was a military commander from the Roman Republic, notorious for being very cautious and a bit boring. Oh, and it was what

Sam: a fascinating topic and going to talk about a podcast about interesting historical figures. That mission is quite boring.

Tom: It gets better, Don't worry. It gets better. Well, I think so, Yeah. I haven't started on the strong now you ever sell it? So it's an interesting story. Don't worry. There were lots of fun things going on around him. While he's sort of cruising through history, being a bit boring. So he was. He was known for being very reserved and conservative with his military command. When all of those around him, we'll be in a lot more hot headed. So Quintus Fabius Maximus, very co sis. I'll call him Fabius. Just so. It's not quite such a mouth. I'm

Sam: really raising from cold halitosis.

Tom: It's a favor. So Fabius Hey, was a five time consul in the Roman Republic and once or twice, dictator, depending on which source you're reading. I was reading Plutarco primarily. I've had a bit of fun reading plea talks, accounts of Fabius, his life. And he says he was dictator once, and he rose to prominence during the second Punic War, which was the end of the third century BC on the second Punic War will affect all Three of the Punic Wars were fought between the Roman Republic on Dhe Empire of Carthage, which was based in North Africa. And it was a sort of their battles for supremacy in that area of the Mediterranean. And then, after the Punic Wars, Rome went on to be the preeminent power in the Mediterranean.

Sam: Carthage is Libya, isn't is that right?

Tom: Yes, I think it is. I think this Libya and at the time, off the second Punic War, they'd taken quite a lot of land in Spain as well. So second, Punic War is most famous for the character Hannibal, the military commander from from Carthage, who famously took his elephants down through the Alps and into into the Italian peninsula and sort of ravaged the countryside and was basically a big thorn in the Roman backside. Now we can go back to Fabius. His name, if you like, Sam. So you you immediately spotted that. Very closest. Sounds like Veruca. Well, it actually means water. Oh, it was a family name. I do too. And I think he was. I may be wrong here, but my understanding is the Quintus Fabius Maximus. That portion of his name would have been shared with some relatives. And so Romans would often be given an additional name based on something to do with their appearance on. He had a water above his lip. So he was called Fabius. The water. If I signal my favorite

Sam: of the seven Roman dwarves,

Tom: you is the would know Ivan the Terrible War. Alexander the Great or Vlad the Impaler. Tonight he was Fabius, the water.

Sam: We're really selling this guy arm with boring 40. Fabius.

Tom: Boring. Warded favorite. I mean, if you if you had if you were gonna be given a nickname based on something to do with your appearance you want, you want it to be slightly more flattering. It could good then, that I've been something more flattering about Fabio's. Maybe some slender ankles,

Sam: slender thank yous.

Tom: Yeah, it's like it's lender rank us or

Sam: a slimming togas.

Tom: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. There's there's so many better things. But actually, he was also given a name, a nickname later on, when he began his political career. On that was conch tater Hate the Tater Absolutely, which means the delayer, because of his military tactics and originally this was given to him is a bit of an insulting nickname. But when his delaying tactics and his cautious forms of warfare became showed themselves to be actually a good tactic against Hannibal, it became more of a flattering nickname. So Concha, Tater Fabius Maximus, Kong dictator on Sam. I want you to try and use this word next week just in everyday life. So perhaps when you're stuck in traffic on the way to work and someone in front of you so hesitating to get out onto a roundabout, just wind the window down and say, I your fucking conch Tater, Get on with it. It works quite nicely, isn't it? Fucking concha Tater. It just rolls off the tongue quite nicely.

Sam: It really does, doesn't it? That's a word we need. Start using where the bus is late. Competing bus driver.

Tom: Yeah. All right, Dave, Your cocktail. Yeah.

Sam: Oh, sorry, darling. I conked ated first. No, that doesn't work, does it? No, I like your contain eating.

Tom: I like the way I like the way you wage to sexual innuendo. Somehow into that I don't know quite how you manage. I think conch tater sounds a little bit more like a vegetable from a Roald Dahl book. I think that is. Yeah, like a snows come bearing a calm potato. Anyway, we've wonderfully got on it on a tangent, going back to history s. So like I said, I was reading Plutarch. Biography of Fabius. Blue tux starts in a wonderful place, and I think most biographies of famous historical figures should start this way. It starts on the banks of the type for with Hercules having it off with the ninth so that Fabius country can trace his ancestry back Thio sexual intercourse on the banks of the type, but within IMF on Blue Tuck does sort of suggest that it could have taken place in Egypt, but when interviewed about it, Hercules was internal. It's a

Sam: fucking week. Haven't you

Tom: Tell me about a week? Yeah. It's gonna take me about a week and then, yes, there was also suggesting that might take place in Northern, you know, Northern Goal, Sam. But that concept was just insane.

Sam: So you reckon afterwards, when he was relieving himself off, he dipped his ideal type?

Tom: You Did you miss my pun? Oh, I said insane because you can't. You know, i e you've ruined a perfectly good pun san.

Sam: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm a bastard in academy. I take that back

Tom: here, we'll have to re record that. Biggs, it was so funny that I did it again on Okay, I love it. Plutarco also suggested it might have taken place in Northern Goal, but actually that suggestions a bit insane. I couldn't think of any more river puns, to be honest, I know what that was. The limit of it anyway. So from a young age, Plutarch tells us Fabius was bit misunderstood by his peers because people thought he was a bit slow, bit submissive. Maybe bit foolish, but in reality characteristics, he was displaying their work. They were patients steadfastness, and he just wasn't thinking enthusiastic about petty things. But as he got older and he got into politics, he became a lot more passionate about X. If somebody was important to him and we get quite a nice quote, actually, let me try and find it from from Plutarch. Here we go. Hey, saw that the conduct of the state was a great task on that Wars must be many. He therefore trained his body for the wars Nature's own armor, as it were. And so I think at this point, if it were a film, we would have a nice training montage. We would have a a nice Roman training montage in the gymnasium with Fabian is covered in olive oil in a loincloth, pumping iron or wrestling. Other fellow Romans. I think that's what that's how I picture this. I don't know whether you can get some sort of rocky music to go on in the background here.

Sam: Once I've stopped sweating, I'll try and find some.

Tom: Yeah, it is. I think it needs to be mildly erotic, but not to a rocket.

Sam: So you want me to try and find some remix of Rocky versus the Stripper? Sog? Yeah, that that that that that that that that that I'll try my best.

Tom: He did do that very well. Sorry. Once Fabius got into into politics and once he held some positions of office clue Takis is contrasting him on, I think about five different occasions with more hot headed and overly ambitious politicians. On the first of those is a chap called Flamin IUs. Now, I don't know what his nickname was. Maybe sort of saggy balls or, um, off Big Flemmi flesh. Flemmi. Flamin yet flipped Flemmi flamin ius on. He was a consul on DDE that there were lots of bad omens at the time. Like chilled sweating, blood tablets falling from the sky and by tablets. I'm guessing they were stone and not, you know, cheap electronics from China. And so this this flamin ius chap, despite all these bad omens around the Roman republic decided to fight Hannibal at the lake treasure. Mean on it was a dreadful battle for the Romans. They lost quite quite badly from India's himself, was killed on 15,000 Romans, were killed. Fabius had warned against this. He had been saying, You know, we need to take a more cautious approach the Hannibal, because he's He's a fantastic commander with a very well trained army. And if we just shadow in, you know, make sure he doesn't pinch any of our allies with his shadow him and get involved in a couple of scuffles and just play a game of chess with him eventually. Here, wear out, is on foreign soil. Eventually, you'll run out of energy and they'll piss off back to Carthage. Favorites was repeat in this message throughout his political career, Really? But it was a very unfashionable approach to take everywhere. All the Romans wanted to front upto Hannibal would just have it out with him. Yeah, the Romans have better. Well, we'll take him on in battle. Will destroy him

Sam: as Romans founded to d'oh.

Tom: Yeah, well, that's

Sam: kind of that bag.

Tom: Yes, absolutely. Fabius was actually appointed dictator shortly after the defeat of treasure mean and also defeat it tribunal, which happened, I think, a year later on, the people of Rome turned to Fabius after these two defeats and thought I shouldn't Maybe this guy's onto something. He was appointed dictator and, incidentally, in the Roman Republic No. Two consoles. They were elected leaders. And then the dictator was, Ah, a position that was occasionally given to someone in periods of need. When the Roman republic thought they needed a strong person just to take control, sort something out, and then they could go back to their there to console system s O. Rome was under threat from an animal, was on the doorstep ravaging the countryside. What you do So what you do in that situation,

Sam: are you? Hi, Tom. You hide like the coward you are.

Tom: Well, that is kind of what people thought Fabius was doing. To be honest, he saw what happened. Flamin. Yes. And he saw the familiars had ignored the bad omens. So Fabius decided Thio sacrifices entire year's increase in goats, pigs, sheep and cattle. Which I can't see, I can't see has been a particularly sensible thing to do when your contract is very specific. Yeah, well, you think that specific you wait. They also decided to have a festival, you know? Well, they're almost on the brink of being conquered. They decided to hold a festival, and the cost of the festival was to be 333. Sister Sha, 333 denarii on dhe. Some other figure with threes in it, so I can't help but feel the Freemen uses potentially a little bit o c d. Very mad if you're cooperative, bonkers when your

Sam: back's against the wall when you're up against the ropes. When you've got a foreign power in your land, what you don't fucking do is burn on your food

Tom: absolutely, and then spend lost somebody on a party

Sam: or your food and have a massive part. Yet

Tom: it's a very old approach, but anyway, baby is's military tactics were adopted, and they continue. They just shadowed Hannibal's forces very much the origins of guerrilla warfare here, incidentally, on you may have heard of Fabian strategy. That's a well known term, and that refers to these things style of warfare that Fabius not necessarily invented. I think that's a a tough thing to say. But a style of warfare that he endorsed Fabius was seen as very cowardly by the Carthaginians and the Romans. In fact, they're probably one of the only people who didn't think it was cowardly was Hannibal because Hannibal understood what Fabius was trying to do when Fabius was appointed dictator. Minutia CE was appointed master of horse, which is a fantastic title, isn't it? Master of horse on millions years

Sam: weren't very good at horses, were they? The Romans had a really bad reputation. I remembered from my doing history that the Roman cavalry were basically just toffs on horses who had no clue what they were doing. I quite quickly go absolutely rinsed in any battle they went into.

Tom: I'm willing to accept that, Sam, I I don't know any better than that, but it certainly sounds like that doing this second Punic War. They actually at the end of the Punic War and there was the battle of his armor. It's my understanding that they managed Thio negotiate with the new medians and get the Numidian cavalry on their site, which was a massive positive. If you like you saying that I could believe that they had cracked cavalry themselves. So, master, the horsemen use use was getting a little bit. Feder of Fabius is tactics and he just wanted you want to have a fight. He wanted to get stuck into the Carthaginians on. Here's a nice little quote. We can all learn from this. Actually, Sam, this is a serious moment in this podcast. I should be a greater coward. The lamb now held be if, through fear of abusive jests, I should abandon my fixed plans and, verily, the fear which, when exercises in behalf of his country, is not shameful but to be frightened for one's course, by the opinions of men and by their slanderous sensuous that marks a man unworthy of so high in offices. This but I think that's a and I think that's a good a good moral for life, isn't it?

Sam: It is, although I do fear that it translates in modern parlance too strong and stable, which, as as a Brit at the current time, I don't want if ever people are going to listen to this. But with the clock very firmly ticking down towards Brexit, strong and stable is ah, somewhat poisoned chalice phrase

Tom: used used the P word san. Don't don't use the B word.

Sam: I won't I would not use the B word again.

Tom: Yes, so we've got minutia ce we got music. It's not perfectly happy with Fabius is tactics. And then we have an incident where Hannibal has a bit of a cock up of rare cock up. Hey, has some local scouts, and he tells him, Take me to this place that starts with C on the scouts

Sam: starting with see part of the story or is starting with C The fact you can't pronounce the name of this town,

Tom: it's just it's not. The information's not really worthwhile. So maybe I can try. It's a passing. Um, So the place was Castle. Um, he wanted to go to the district of Cassingham Onda. Unfortunately, his scouts misheard him. Aunt took him to the district of Castle in, um, you something state to make, isn't it? I'm

Sam: sorry for taking the mike. Oh, no animal. I'm sorry, Accent, You know, to go where? There. The pastor. Very bad that my mom has a place in here. You go in here, you have nice time.

Tom: He could have chosen back guides. Goodness really

Sam: supposed to Stereotypical and frankly, slightly racist interpretations of Italian.

Tom: Why don't we try North African accent? Sounds that slightly more racist is that riskier? Hannibal finds himself in the wrong place. He finds himself in a strategically very weak positions. He's gone to the wrong place. Fabius picks up on this blocks the only exit from this area of the Italian countryside on Hannibal sinking. All fuck, I'm stuffed. But this is where we get some of the genius of Hannibal What he does. First of all, he crucified the guides. I mean, I think that's only just and then what he does if he gets 2000 cattle sets alight to their horns and at nighttime sends them with a few people up to the past. And so you got some Roman's guarding this past and they see a ll these people. What they think they see is people marching up towards the past. The cattle don't get burnt with sort of flames of burning down towards their heads. The cattle then go ape shit and started running around the countryside in a crazed manner which strikes terror into the Romans. The Romans like what the fuck is going on here on day leave? And so, in this way, Hannibal manages to get himself out of this position. Presumably he goes through the past that is now left unoccupied. gets out of this very unpleasant predicament.

Sam: I'm not a vegetarian, but I can't help but feel that the real victims of the second Punic War were cows, all of them for a year get slaughtered. And then the ones that survive that get set on fire by Hannibal

Tom: and sent up to a path. He absolutely it Hannibal, I don't think was very nice to animals or guides. I'm not sure how many of his elephants got through the outside that didn't arrive with three left off with about 33 anyway. So? So the book. It's out of this situation and that does not look very good for Fabius Is selling himself was a master tactician and a very patient general. And he's just been out general by Hannibal. And so that does not go down very well. So minutia ce master the horse uses this is his opportunity. Favorites goes back to Rome minutia CE is out sort of shepherding Hannibal under strict guide not to engage in any battles while Fabius is away. What does minutia studio engages in a battle on this? Actually, I don't know if you know this, but this is punishable by death if you're the dictator, if if someone doesn't follow their command, Fabius was well within his rights to kill. Malicious. For this, however, the Roman people made their voice known on Dhe said, Look, please don't do that. We quite like malicious. He did quite well in this battle a little while ago that you didn't want him to engage in on DSO. They elected two of them as code dictators. And I can't help but feel that that's no different to having consoles

Sam: find. You're entirely sure how to dictators is going to work. Sure, you can only have one man busted running a country, possibly his son as well. Doing a bit of work on the sideline, coaching the national football team or something?

Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely masterful. But that's what all dictators sons do. Character. National football team. Yeah, give me an example. Go on. I said

Sam: I'm Hussein's sons s. So did S o to get Effie sons style in the sun. If the death of Starling is to be believed, was the coach of the Soviet Rocket? If you've got an errand troublesome, son, you set them off for the national Sporting T torture the players when they lose.

Tom: Yeah, but that's that's it's nice that they take after their father a little bit.

Sam: If it is, it's learning the family, learning the family trade.

Tom: You learned the family trade. So anyway, minutia and Fabius there now in joint command on what they do is they actually just split the Roman army. So expect the Roman army half half. Now, what we get this is another example of Fabius being right. You know, someone else being hot headed and getting it wrong.

Sam: Fucking smart ass water.

Tom: So minutia ce sets out Thio take control over a hill that looked like it was gonna be very strategically valuable. However, Hannibal was laid in ambush. Hannibal gives me Lucious a bit of a spanking on Bush's. His forces surrounds him. And Fabius is looking on from afar with his portion of the army thinking, old dear, Here we go. I knew this was gonna happen. In fact, quote, he smoked his thigh and with a deep groan, said to the bystanders, Hercules, how much sooner than I expected, But later than his own rash eagerness demanded. Has minutia is destroyed himself on Sam, When you're calling someone a fucking conch tater. Next week, I'd like you to smite your thigh on potentially exclaim Hercules as well.

Sam: I must tell the listeners that I do live in in Manchester and I think I might get slightly shanked for that, depending on where I do it. I

Tom: do not think any of them know who Hercules is or Waas.

Sam: I think it's conch. Tater is

Tom: gonna get the country of the risks. The word. Okay, So malicious. Saved by Fabius. So Fabius comes down into the battle with his half the army gets me Lucius out of trouble minuti asses. Forever grateful, Exceed Actually start to panic and sort of showing his true colors. He basically puts his hands up two favors and said, Sorry, mate. I got it wrong. You were right. I fucked up. Hey, thanks for thanks for saving me. So what we've got now is a favorite of minutia. They end their visit dictatorship. We have two new consuls, trenches, varroa and powerless. Emelius. We could never go there. Nicknames, if you like. What would we have? The trenches. Vero.

Sam: Who? Something wheelbarrow. I can do better than this. I promise. Let's go to the other one first and we'll come back

Tom: powerless. Amelia's. They have big noses, didn't they? We could have powerless big nose.

Sam: All right, we know we're not doing anything that actually rhymes with their nickname That makes that makes life easier, powerless, nor bed

Tom: Nice. That is I see what you did. There s Oh, yes, we've got two wrenches, varroa and powerless. Amelia's as consoles. They are very hotheaded again. They want a fight. They put together the biggest bloody learned

Sam: the bloody Romans, do they?

Tom: You're getting the hang of it, Sam. You're learn. And you've only heard about this the last 20 minutes. I'm learning. You'd think these are The guys would know better, but they put together the largest army, by all accounts, twice as big as anything. The Romans that ever put into into the field of battle. 80,000 men. I think it was

Sam: huge. Huge army. Just the biggest army.

Tom: So they get this army together on dhe. Fabius says, Look, this is not a good idea. What happens if we get defeated? You've got all these men are not sure Rome could cope with losing this many men in one battle. All you've gotta do is make one mistake on this is the famous battle of cannae. So row Yeah, we know what's going

Sam: on. I gotta put a proper sound effect in there.

Tom: Yes, yes, we know about the battle of cannae. Well, the bloodiest battle was an ancient warfare. But before we get to the nitty gritty of the battle this but about this if you thought my river puns were funny, I would just wait for this anecdote. The first time I read

Sam: literally clenching my buttocks and holding my arms into my seat,

Tom: I I was on the floor wriggling around in fits of hysterics when I first heard this. So I'm just gonna go Woodward from Plutarch because I cannot do it. Just if it justice. If I try and sort of describe the incident myself. So we have instant. Is this a situation? We got Hannibal with some of his commanders looking down at the Roman forces and a lot of them 80,000 of them. And that's a chap called Disco. I wonder

Sam: if it's time to forget e

Tom: this'll disco That could be his nickname. Disco gets go. Hey, Hannibal. When one of his companions named Disco. A man of his own rank remarked that the number of the enemy amazed him. Hannibal put on a serious look and said Disco, another thing as a schedule notice, which is more amazing. Still on when Disco asked what it waas it is. The fact said, he that in all this multitude there is no one who is called Disco. And then

Sam: I was hoping for something. I think it's kind. It's kind of a family story. I was hoping for more along the lines of I'm not wearing any pants.

Tom: I think this is actually in all of ancient historical literature. This is the best bit of evidence to indicate that in ancient Rome and Greece they didn't have the channel, Dave, because this is what happened After this jest let me again word for word. The just took them all by surprise and set them laughing. And as they made their way down from the ridge, they reported the pleasantry to all who met them so that great numbers were laughing. Hartley, on Hannibal's escort could not even recover themselves the sight of this infused courage into the Carthaginians. They were pissed themselves. He's the only one in all of those, I guess. Come, I think this is not too is only the one this guy e But one of you get it May wearing any pans. So if you thought Hannibal was a well, you know, crucifying stereotypical Italians, you're wrong. You know, he had attended. He had a funny sight, Didn't

Sam: just crucify cattle and guides. You guys fight the mike?

Tom: Yes. Many of you will know about what happens at the battle of cannae on. We got quite a nice description from Plutarch. Essentially, the Roman forces were so strong that Hannibal classic tactic apparently finds a area of land to engage in battle. That's narrow, so it sort of reduces the front of the larger force. So the Romans were sort of squeeze together a wee bit. Hannibal places his weakest mercenary troops at the center and its strongest flanking them. What then happens is the Romans push forward, pushed through the week mercenary forces and essentially push themselves into a position where they're flat. We then get the Numidian cavalry. The Numidian cavalry again. Go around the outside, defeat the Roman cavalry, as you said to a notoriously. Shit. They go around the back. Defeat the other flank of cavalry on the Roman forces that completely hemmed in all 80,000 of them. On depending on the source that you read, as many as I think 65 70,000 Romans were killed. Ridiculous numbers of Romans were slaughtered in this in this battle, including masses of the political class, including flamin ius, flamin ius. Was that this battle and was killed a massive fuck up a massive fuck up for the Romans. Who did the Romans turn to after this awardee? Aw, T. Fabius, they go. Sorry, Fabius, we fucked up again because we didn't listen to you. Can you help us out of a pickle? And so Fabius is the man they turned to and is a very strong willed individual. Fabius Nagy goes around Rome, reassuring everyone saying it's gonna be okay. We're gonna sort this out. I'm

Sam: sorry about all of your sons. Yes, I kissed. By the way

Tom: my understanding is instead it after after candy. I think what the Romans had to do was they had to lower that they have to lower the age that you could fight in the Army and they had to let prisoners fight And that you all sorts of things to be out to get him on Army back up.

Sam: I just had a just had a kind of a mental image of him walking around the town, apologizing to all of the mothers whose sons of just being killed and knocking on one door and going I'm so sorry, Mrs Mrs Ge Isco. Hang on a second, i

Tom: e. Wrong Favorites retakes the city of Toronto, Um, using Cem Cem clever tactics and Hannibal himself, taking the city of Trenton by being a bit of a clever clogs. And this point again, I think I'll quote Plutarco at this point, Hannibal starting to realize that actually is positioning its least pretty tricky quote, but that in private he was then for the first time, led to confess to his friends that he had long seen the difficulty and now saw the impossibility of their master in Italy with their present forces. So this tactic from Fabio's had been working in worn Hannibal down, as he said he would. That's pretty much the story of Fabius if it Interestingly, he dies pretty much as Hannibal leaves the Italian peninsula. His final rivalry political rivalry was with Skippy. Afrikaners, who is the new boy on the scene on Dhe, was very brash and an eager for a fight. But how? This different tactic, which was to actually attack the Carthaginians first in Spain, then in North Africa, which ended with the battlers arma So Skippy? Oh, slightly different. But actually, in the end, his hot headedness in his military genius was actually what defeated Hannibal. But that came on the back of all the hard work of Fabius. So Fabius dies pretty much as as Hannibal was leaving Italy. So there is the story of Fabius.

Sam: His long wait is over.

Tom: There you go. And you know, Fabian Society's we ever heard of Fabian Society of they named after him? Absolutely. That they're socialist society is that believe in that sort of slow move towards socialism. They don't believe in big political upheavals or anything like that. And so they took the name Fabius. Fabian Society's There you go. Interesting. Thanks

Sam: for sharing, Tom. I learned something today.

Tom: I did as well. I learned about family arsenal. Know what was funny? Chelsea

Sam: Willie Arsenal.

Tom: Could you talk to them.

Sam: Uh oh, dear. I think we should probably leave it on. That shouldn't waste a topic for next week. Sure, you do that on air.

Tom: Okay, go for I haven't really thought that through. What do

Sam: we do? Luck be that Good luck or bad luck? Or do you want to do Eureka moments?

Tom: Let's do Eureka moments. And were you moments cool? I'm gonna have to be slightly Maur inventive than you know. The bath was there are comedians in the bath. It was Aristotle. I think it was our comedians, wasn't it?

Sam: Of one of one of a Greek,

Tom: a Greek with this name. Star in a

Sam: Well, we're both coughing and spluttering away me because it's January. And you, I think probably because I'm doing it. You psychologically picked hay fever?

Tom: My microphone is covered in snot right now dripping off it.

Sam: Oh, dear. On that charming mental note, that's goodbye for us for this week. This was the as yet unnamed pilots of the as yet unnamed history Podcast on. If you're listening to this at some 00.6 months down the line, Thanks for tuning in