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Tom: I had a bit of graffiti about me in the common room at college and it was signed here. If you think Tom looks like Postman Pat on, there were quite a few signatures underneath it. I remember that. I don't know whether I should have been insulted or flattered. I don't It's postman Pat, Handsome and charismatic.

Sam: Yeah, by the standards of stop motion animation characters, he's probably, you know, if Wallace of Wallace and Gromit Famous or six Postman Pat's probably a seven and 1/2 8

Tom: What's Fireman? Sam?

Sam: I love a man in uniform, Tom.

Tom: Why is it sounded When I said Fireman Sam and we were talking about how good looking I just imagined? Fireman Sam is a stripper. Taken office. Fireman Sam Jacket

Sam: showing his poll

Tom: showed his post swinging his helmet around height. Ah, good evening. Good morning. Good evening. How are you?

Sam: Good morning. Good evening. Good morning. I'm fucking fabulous. How you doing? Let's get swearing out. A way to begin with.

Tom: I'm good. The slurring Sorry.

Sam: The swearing,

Tom: the swearing seriously Said the slurring. Unless I have been drinking this week, some water There is no slurry.

Sam: It's 10 past eight for me in the morning, so I'm on it.

Tom: You're straight away. Yep. Hair of the dog

Sam: pretty Went live in a

Tom: I've just had a curry. Really nice curry on its or or some smelly exam. But luckily, your hundreds and thousands of miles away.

Sam: And yet I've still gotta with

Tom: good, right. What's the topic for this week?

Sam: The topic for this week, Tom, is historical stupidity.

Tom: Excellent. Excellent. Have you got a good example? Did you have success in your research?

Sam: Oh, my God. History is written by very intelligent people. History is performed by absolute fucking morons. There have been surreal examples of What the fuck were you thinking over the 10 Also millennia of written human existence.

Tom: Let's be honest. So, Sam, you just gotta drive to work in the morning to realize that there are quite a lot of stupid people around. And then you multiply that by tens of thousands of years. Yeah, there's gonna be some good examples. Isn't that

Sam: they're absolutely I mean, I work from home on de so I don't drive to work and yet staying home alone all day. I still experience monumental stupidity on a semi regular basis, so I can only imagine what multiplying that by the 7,000,000,000 other people in the world would achieve.

Tom: It's almost a bit of a passion of mine observing other people's stupidity. Have you heard of the Dunning Kruger effect, Sam?

Sam: I have. Yeah. This is the one where the less you know about something, the more you have an expert you believe you are.

Tom: Absolutely. I loved. I absolutely love this. Yeah, that's right. And actually, at the other end of the spectrum, the more intelligent you are, the more you question your knowledge on the Maur, you assume other people are intelligent.

Sam: Well, unfortunately, I think of myself as an absolute fuck wit on de. So therefore, I should probably be writing nuclear fizzy.

Tom: I'm not sure it works that way, but it's no. It's a really cool concept. That is a fantastic concept. And it's actually a concept that has been alluded to. Some people kind of have been aware of this throughout history. I've got some quotes, fearsome Confucius. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's knowledge. That's Confucius, Shakespeare, the full don't think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. Well, that's a good one on then. Alexander Pope. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Our little learning is a dangerous thing, actually. My apologies. Yeah. I just love this concept. The city people think that smartass is, but it also makes you question yourself. Doesn't it sound when you're thinking someone else has been stupid? Is that you? That's being the stupid one?

Sam: No. Especially when commenting on the Internet,

Tom: you know, Do you know that there's another fact there's a favorite study of mine on git was taking. It was done in the United States. I think it's been repeated in a number of places, but a large group of people are asked how good they are at driving, and usually the result comes out and about 90% of people saying they're above average. And, you know, I just love the fact that mathematically it's just completely doesn't add up. It is brilliant on that note, I'm hoping now we're not gonna make any mistakes because we're gonna look like total hypocrites. Only because we quit. We were just saying how stupid other people are. We can have to be on our game this week,

Sam: I because I have a highly intelligent man and therefore fully aware of my own failings, know that I'm going to fuck up. But fortunately through the magic of editing, I could make myself seem like an absolute sage. You, on the other hand, are absolutely at my mercy, my

Tom: friend. That's exactly what I was going to say. I'm doomed. I do. You do what you like. You gonna head out all the good things I say and just fill the podcast with shit, you vindictive bastard. Who have you chosen to do, Sam? What have you chosen is your topic

Sam: so today, Tom, But I'm gonna talk about the Battle of Karen. Save is in 17 88 a k a. How to lose a war with booze. Excellent. And what are you talking about?

Tom: I'm going to go back to the Roman Empire. Sam. I've done the Roman Republic, so I don't feel like I'm repeating myself. If I do the Roman Empire and I'm gonna talk about satire 10 of juvenile's the satires

Sam: I don't know the satires.

Tom: Good. I didn't either. I'm going back to being sore. See, Sam, I like having a source on focusing in on a source. They call me sore. See Tom, for that reason,

Sam: I have seen that written on many a toilet wall.

Tom: Oh, yes or see Tom was there. It's me that right there.

Sam: Yeah, well, it wouldn't be someone else's writing source. He Tom was It was It could

Tom: be another Tom. There could be another source. See, Tom? So yes, I'm pleased to be talking about Juvenile's a satire, Sam, because it it's actually book that sat on my bookshelf since universities. In the first year at university, I did a module. Whether the lecturer said, You have to buy this book, it's most important book you're gonna buy on. We never used it once. I'm gonna pick it up here, and I'm gonna look at how much it cost. Seven pound 99. That cost. That was about four months worth of pot noodles at university.

Sam: So that was any Americans listening to this. You were used to paying like, three or $400 for a course. Tex, look, they are not gonna have a huge amount of sympathy for you. There's still 7 99 7 99 isn't it,

Tom: but no, I had good fun Reading juvenile satire is actually quite good. But I must admit, Sam, you know, on this topic, we could have both gone very, very, very silly. You know, there are plenty examples. Aren't there plenty of historical examples of just plain silliness? My choice, actually, Sam is gonna is gonna be very educational. And it's hopefully gonna change how people think about their life.

Sam: Fuck's sake. Really,

Tom: very absolute. Poignant, I think, is the word I'm gonna use.

Sam: Mine's not fair enough. It's just an example of people being arts also, stupid

Tom: people. This is nice juxtaposition there some which I think is gonna be a good for the listener.

Sam: We should probably flip something to see who goes first, didn't we?

Tom: He's gonna have a toss.

Sam: Well, you know me, Tom. I'm always one for a toss again. I haven't got my wallet with me. So in the fine tradition of that was genius, I'm going to flip a random item that I have in front of me, which in this case, is my p 45

Tom: before. So, your people, it is not a isn't that you've been sacked?

Sam: Yes, it is Tom. Yes, it is. It's the documents in the UK you get when you leave your employment, for whatever reason. And I happen to have mine in front of me now.

Tom: Were you sacked from your last job?

Sam: I wasn't. No, I Ah, no, no. I have been sacked before for getting into an argument with a celebrity.

Tom: I love this anecdote, Sam, but I I don't know much about podcasts. I'm guessing we're not allowed to blame you. It is

Sam: No.

Tom: Could we salute one of the biggest Hollywood stars in history? He's been in

Sam: Yes, a very major Hollywood star who has bean in

Tom: the biggest franchises in history?

Sam: Yes, several. Several off. That is as much as I'm going to say about names, I think cause I don't have to edit this out. I had a job. Is a celebrity interviewer a few years back on Dhe? It was quite a stressful job. I was working quite long hours. I was. It was the end of a very, very long day. This guy was promoting a new film. He'd had a very long day. Neither restaurant, great from Andi. Easy, somewhat typecast. I think this actor It's fair to say that I was getting kind of one word answers out of him. He was basically being a bit unhelpful, which isn't very good. When you were trying to interview someone for radio or TV on, I was very tired. I'm not really thinking straight, and there's two things you can do in this situation. Can either try and suck up t this person, or you can kind of inside antagonize them a little bit of

Tom: wind them up. Okay,

Sam: Yeah, you can. You can wind them up a little bit to see if you get more of a result that way. Anyway, I went for the wind up option and basically ask this person why they only ever play themselves in films. I didn't basically ask that that was how we worded the question To which said Celebrity responded. I think that's a little small minded and left the room and shut me down and I got my boss, got a call from his person about three weeks later and I behold into an office and given the rest of the day and in fact, my life off.

Tom: Oh, but Sam, I think it's worth it I think it was worth it. Because I love that anecdote. It's one of my favorite anecdotes ever from anyone

Sam: try to get fired. But for this job, No, I quit to go travelling. So would you like the side that has how much I earned on it or the side that has my address and details of my employer on it.

Tom: Did you learn a lot? Because that side will be heavier,

Sam: significantly Maur than iron Now, as a work from home podcast producer.

Tom: I'm gonna go for that side, Sam, because it sounds like an airy and it sounds like it's gonna be at the top when it falls.

Sam: Okay, There you go. I have no idea if you heard that, but it did, in fact, hit the microphone on its way down. And it is the side that makes me weep. Because I remember they used to have a wage. You win.

Tom: Ah, get in. I'm gonna put you in first so you can go.

Sam: Okay. Well, in that case, I'm gonna start us off with the Battle of Karen. Seb is which occurred on the night of the 21st to the 22nd of September 17 88. And this battle was part of the Austro Turkish War, off 17. 87 to 17 91 which was part of a wider war in which Catherine the Great of ruling Russia and shagging horses fame, was invading turkey from the north.

Tom: Hold on. Shagging, shagging, horses, Fame.

Sam: Oh, yeah, You know what? I was considering doing it My love story last week, but I thought that too many people would have heard of it. Heard of Catherine the Great on her infamous taste for men and horses.

Tom: I've never heard of this.

Sam: The air she she died Being shagged by a horse is the legend the rumor split asunder 00 I was going to say I was gonna go that deep far

Tom: so she had a fetter know she had a fetish for horses.

Sam: Catherine the Great had a fetish for absolutely everything. She had her first husband murdered

Tom: for sexual reasons.

Sam: Well, the power reasons more than anything else. But whilst her first husband was busy being murdered, she decided that she was born and so shag to the soldiers who were guarding her. Glatt started off quite a long train of sexual depravity. The Russians were mental, though, absolutely amount. But anyway, while she was shagging horses, she was also fucking turkey Nice. Just a Segway as neatly back on track. Three sentences in. I like that Austria big in part time Holy Roman Empire. Thought we'll have a beer This So they invaded Turkey as well. From the west coming in on the east on Dhe, the Austrian army waas huge. It was 100,000 men from all parts of the empire, including Italians, Czechs, Hungarians and lots of mercenaries as well, many of whom, and this is important. Later in the story spoke no German whatsoever, not a word of it. On the 21st of September 17 88 this huge army being led by the Holy Roman Empire, Joseph, the second arrived in the town of Karen, says in modern day Romania, which is kind of on the border between the Austrian Empire in the Ottoman Empire. At the time, Karen said, there's very important town very strategically placed down a valley which opens up onto the Hungarian plains, and they were there scouting for Ottoman forces who they knew around somewhere but had no idea where it was getting late. The sun was setting and the town was as good a place as any to stop. It was strategically important. Have said had nice houses for the officers to sleep in and have their dress shirts cleaned. And all of the other things that watching sharp for many years taught me is important about armies in this time.

Tom: Excellent. Which side with Sean Bean on? Are we allowed to name him? How can I name the actor?

Sam: We can name sure being Yeah, sure means lovely.

Tom: If you like. We could use another name that people will know, but it won't be alluding to him directly. We could call him Xun. Be? Yeah.

Sam: Wow, That started off full of promise today.

Tom: I was thinking so hard about a fanatic. What was gonna go for is the joke

Sam: was seen Bone,

Tom: who believes on the base in Haiti. My tongue. I realized I'd start fucking I'll go with

Sam: you. I don't even know I didn't because all this is

Tom: a sweet establish from last week's, um you know, we could get something fantastic if we just produce enough content. We just could have

Sam: scabs throw eggs. Absolutely. the armies in the town of Karen says, And everything we know up to this point is true. We can say without doubt that this war happened on the Army was in this place at this time. But after this, it starts to get a little bit muddy for reasons that will become clear. Some of it is first handle. Secondhand reports of the battle. What happened? Some of its newspaper articles, both from friendly and hostile publications, and some of it is just a legend. But here's the most common and frankly, the most fun retelling of the story. Tom. So the Army set up its camp just outside the town and sends out advance parties to watch for intruders, one of which was a company off Who SARS, who were kind of elites. Noble cavalry forces, right? They crossed over the river near town, the Timis River, and set up a little camp and were approached by a group of locals who've been distilling some Schnapps. The SAZ brought their entire supply and started to get very, very, very, very drunk

Tom: snaps what one actually is Schnapps. I'm not

Sam: entirely certain I've been drunk on it many times but I have no idea what it's made off. It's basically a spirit's kind of vodkas. Germanic vodka,

Tom: Germanic vodka. Excellent. Okay.

Sam: Yeah, it sze slightly sweet. But let's be honest, this this stuff have been brooding about by the locals, and soap is probably just meth nettles. So anyway, you've got a group of drunk cavalrymen having a little party there singing. They're having a great time. And pretty quickly, a group of infantrymen from across the river on the main camp heard what was going on on. Crossed over to join in, demanding that the Hussars shared some of their booze. The cavalrymen refused. Obviously, they were elite cavalry. They pay for all this booze themselves. Why would they share it with scummy common soldiers? So obviously a massive fight broke out. At some point, it started to get serious. And the cavalry actually built barricades and fortifications around the booth.

Tom: No, your god surely know I

Sam: tried. Yeah. To try and stop anyone from stealing it whilst pissed. No doubt. So absolutely. Muller. So actually

Tom: it was this Mrs Barricades is stolen traffic cones and signs that they just

Sam: yes, pitched pretty short. That was it.

Tom: It will be a great idea. Let's build a

Sam: barricade. They could take our lives, but I'll never say your booze.

Tom: Yeah, I love my snaps.

Sam: I have you you a This obviously got the infantry really fucking angry on at some point, someone fired a shot. The gunfire alerted yet another party of soldiers who obviously thought that the Ottomans were attacking and started to yell out that the Turks were coming drunken hussars and infantry realizing suddenly that there was an attack incoming and that they were out in the open it away from the main camp immediately panicked and started to scatter and run back towards the camp. Not realizing, of course, that they were in fact, the Turkish invaders. The main body of troops in the camp heard the gunfire and saw that people were trying to cross the river at speed in the darkness while shouting and screaming in languages that they didn't understand on obviously assumed that it was the Turks. So the main camp of soldiers opened fire on all of the soldiers who were trying to retreat from the Turks who weren't there because they were the Turks. Oh, no. Other parties who've been sent forward to scout for Ottoman troops. Saw what was happening. Assumed the camp was under attack and they started to run back to try and defend the campus Well on so clearly they got shot at the soldiers in the camp.

Tom: This is ridiculous. This is like one of those comedy fights in a bar, isn't it? Where someone throws a old like our fight starts, you know, someone throws a cake that the person dodges. It's the next person that person throws a pineapple, it dodgers someone else and ended before you know it is a food fight.

Sam: What kind of food fight Have you seen Where the two items on offer a cake and a pineapple

Tom: has re establishing last week. ABA card is

Sam: one of those. Also went hold is gonna cause a hell of a lot more damage to any of

Tom: you could find out against the side of the head. I was thinking of

Sam: everybody brings a pineapple to a cake fight.

Tom: It depends what sort of cake it is. It could be a rock cake.

Sam: Well, it could be a pineapple upside down cake which were taken off a lot more sense. in context.

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. It was a pineapple feast that there was people, right?

Sam: Well known Feast of the pineapple. But yes, he has established. It was it was a bus. It was basically a farcical bar fight. Yet by this point, but all of the soldiers have been sent out to scout now believe in the camp, was under attack, fled back to the camp to try and defend it. They were coming in from all directions, which, of course, made the panic. Soldiers in the camp think that they were completely surrounded by the Ottomans on Dhe started just shooting it. Absolutely Everyone who moves. Some of the officers who were camped on slightly higher ground realized what was happening and waded into the fray and started to shout Holt in German hulls. But of course, heights. How's

Tom: my God is doing presumably Austrian.

Sam: Yes, they were. Yes. The officers were largely Austria.

Tom: So did they sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger?

Sam: They did. Yeah.

Tom: Good, darling, What are you waiting for?

Sam: Get with tense.

Tom: You doing?

Sam: The Austrian oak himself came out and started shouting hold. But of course, all of the non German speaking troops have no idea what this meant and immediately apparently assumed that they were shouting Allah because the two you sound really similar.

Tom: Hold on our Yeah, okay.

Sam: And therefore started to assume that not only were they being attacked, but the Ottomans had infiltrated the camp ou and started attacking all of the officers who obviously then ran away as well. One of the army senior commanders saw what was happening. Assumed that the camp had been overrun on that the Ottomans were deep inside their own territory and so ordered all of the cannons to open fire on the camp.

Tom: For crying out loud.

Sam: It just got worse and worse. On what? So

Tom: the cannons. So where were the cannon's position?

Sam: So the cannons would typically have been positioned on slightly higher ground so that they could get a proper range of fire over overlooking the camp in the surrounding rivers so that they could they could fire on any intruders. So at this point,

Tom: the ship's cannon said that our own bloody camp

Sam: thing, the Austrian army was fighting the Austrian army whilst running from the Austrian army, drunkenly shooting at anyone they could see, believing that everyone they could see was in fact, an autumn, um or whilst being shelled by their own cannons.

Tom: Oh, my God.

Sam: There was absolute pandemonium. And at some point, it got so bad that Emperor Joseph, the second himself the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, was knocked off his horse into a ditch.

Tom: A za comedy, this is sounded a bit farcical set. This

Sam: is the slapstick and the

Tom: absolutely Did he did he land in a sort of barrel of tar on their roll out into a big pile of feathers?

Sam: CIA. He landed on his bum into a big barrel of tar and then rolled down a hill on ended up at the bottom of the hill where the trumpet went there, or a little trombone sound of that. He just stood there tapping a chin like laurel and Hardy in the head,

Tom: looking at the camera.

Sam: That's another fine mess you've gotten us into.

Tom: Yeah, the Germans are known for their sense of humor. Run that

Sam: they absolutely are. It was to quote the great Malcolm Tucker on omni shambles. It was a cluster fuck. The army fled the town in panic. Dozens of soldiers died, and many more were report admitting along with how did this happen? At some point during the battle of the army's entire paychecks went missing. Oh yes, color me Surprised.

Tom: So in the midst of all the stupidity, someone was sharpened after they hold on. This is my opportunity. Let's grab ahold of that with the With the Ottomans observing this because she can't help but notice that had been it would have been a wonderful thing to watch.

Sam: Well, according to this version of the story, no, they actually turned up two days later into the town on Dhe found hundreds of wounded men the camp in absolute ruins and on fire. And they took the town without a shot being fired

Tom: on the locals pissing themselves, Theo.

Sam: Locals absolutely shitting themselves. This

Tom: hysterics before she eight hours of constant hysteric.

Sam: Yeah, Joseph, the second walking around town with bums still stuck in a barrel. Somebody please get me out of this Took batter. My God, what

Tom: does an emperor have to

Sam: do to get a little

Tom: helpful of you? Ah, really?

Sam: I I oppa dedicated to extend up. And some reports suggest they found around 1500 dead and wounded man around the tower, which is the most credible result of the battle. There are some some accounts give figures of up to 10,000 but that's that's frankly nonsense. There's nothing to support that. But most sources say it was around 1500 casualties dead and wounded. That's incredible. Yeah, exactly what happened that night will remain a mystery because, oddly and unsurprisingly, there's no full account of what happened from the Austrian army records. It seems to have been swept under the rug a little bit. And they were, if news reports at the time that said that there was a friendly fire incident, some kind of kerfuffle on the border of the Austrian and the Ottoman empires and foreign intelligence briefings in London at the time I get there give a slightly different version of stories which said that it was a bit of nighttime confusion and that there were some Ottoman scouts have been taking pot shots at the camp, so everyone was kind of a bit nervous. And when two patrols discovered each other, there was a bit of a panic on ground. 100 50 men were killed, but that wouldn't explain how the entire 100,000 man army was completely routed, fled the area, and the Ottomans were able to take the town without firing a shot. So that story has a hole in it. And frankly, the version I told is much more fun,

Tom: absolutely much more fun. And if so, is there a propaganda element to the account that you've described? Cem?

Sam: Yeah, almost Certainly. So we've got Ottoman records on this. We have records from back home in Vienna, and actually, it must be said that the accounts from Vienna are very complimentary. This was a very unpopular war, right? The whole war was a bit of a mess. Joseph. The second was looking for a bit of stability at home, which is why he started this war. But it went really badly. They were around 10,000 casualties. Around 10% of the army died, but largely from disease. They were just They were in a really bad way the entire time. There was a huge refugee problem. They were considering introducing conscription back in Vienna because so many officers had died so all of Vienna's elite fled the city and fled the Empire right, which caused a recession which caused rioting in the streets of Vienna. So the entire war was really unpopular. And there's every chance that what actually happened in, Karen says, was blown completely out of proportion even by the Austrian press home because they were looking for an excuse. Thio snub The Emperor's not the empire basically called Bull on the entire war. It was a real mess, you know. It didn't end well, but current says was probably the worst of it. I'm gonna put that out there.

Tom: That's fantastic. That is fun. But I can't help but feel that some of that is just is comic license from some writers. But it is a wonderful story.

Sam: It absolutely is. But I'm willing to embrace that for the purposes of entertainment. Tom.

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam: There's something to be said in history as well. History isn't necessarily about the truth. History is about what people were writing on dhe on With that justification, I'm willing to give the folk version of the story because it's fucking Hill areas. That

Tom: is good. That is fantastic. Well, as I mentioned at The Star, I've chosen a non option that allows me to go a little bit highbrow Sam. It's still talking about man's stupidity, man's folly. But we're all gonna learn some valuable lessons here today. I think, Sam, I hope that after this podcast, people gonna go away. Better people, wiser people,

Sam: bold, lofty ambitions.

Tom: Well, I'm sure that's happened in the previous four episode, Sam. I mean the digressions into Big Break. I think we're very mentally stimulating.

Sam: Absolutely. And you know, so flannel wash bottom I, for one am now taking him is my moral guy

Tom: is your is your Jiminy crickets of flannel Bush bottom sits on your shoulder giving good

Sam: advice. I let him sit on my shoulders well timed. You know why he's got a very clean bottom. Sam, is that me flatter

Tom: or have a good day today? What should we have for breakfast or Domino's Pizza? Huh? How many hobnobs do you want today? Have lots of time? Have lots of hobnobs?

Sam: The most important thing to remember is to always wash behind your ears on they know their areas that can pick up bacteria.

Tom: That's very practical advice I would like to have flood washed bottom is my good conscience, who with your bad consciences bubbly fart for last Your bad conscience.

Sam: No, my bad conscience is now Hillary.

Tom: Okay, Abel Ho. Come on, Sal Pop, Don't neither them with that bad. Hey, could you? Don't think of anyone worse, right? I've chosen Sam Juvenile satire Number 10

Sam: my favorite of the 10 satires

Tom: There are actually wolf some. They're 16 in five different books. That's juvenile. You may think there's a connection between juvenile and the word juvenile. There is Sam so juvenile's actual name. And now prepare yourself for pronunciation of Latin decimus Younousse you've analysis. That's his name on dhe. I think it's the final part that you've analysis just means young adult s. So that's the connection. So that's juvenile.

Sam: Is this in the same way that we had water Fabius the other week? And the Romans just gave each other nicknames because they all have the same name.

Tom: You right there might well be. Actually, that's a very good point. That is a very good, But it could well be the case because I'm sure at some point in his life, he probably was a young man.

Sam: Well, the odds are

Tom: yeah, the odds are so this is satire number 10 sat I 10 is is called by this translator. Did futility of aspirations on Quite early on in this Saturday, we get the quote, we beg for things that will hurt us. So this this satire is one of the most famous of the sat eyes is about the folly of humans aspiring to things that actually aren't gonna make them happy. And in fact, these things, it will actually lead to their downfall in certain occasions. Juvenile himself was born in the second half of the first century A d. So this is just to give you an idea of when this is all taking place. And so when he was young, he would have lived through the reins of some of the shittier emperors,

Sam: as they're known in history books.

Tom: That's the shittier emperors. Absolutely well, that links are nicely sound to the emperors who were alive who were raining when juvenile was actually writing. So he was writing during the period that we call the rain the rain of the five good emperors. Do you know who they are? Some.

Sam: Oh, you know why being history found? I feel like I should be able to name some of the better emperors. But is it Diocletian? Is he one of

Tom: them? Diocletian is not some is not. He's one of the earlier Empress, isn't he? So I think. God, let's edit this about sounds. It's demonstrating a to demand of ignorance. I'm 75 good emperors on. I might not get these in the right order. Nerva. Trajan! Hey, Adrian.

Sam: Oh, trading was on my list. I was gonna guess trade you're

Tom: gonna trade yet? Trading on to nine s pious on then Marcus Aurelius. So those with five good Empress and that period, probably at the peak of prosperity on DDE piece on dhe. Sort of the best time to live in the Roman Empire. To the extent, in fact, that the famous offer the historian Edward Gibbon, who wrote the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, said that that of all the times in human history, that is the time that he would most like to live. That was one of the best times to live. It's a human.

Sam: That's a bold claim, isn't it? The best time to live as a human was 1 52 100 a day.

Tom: Absolutely. I thought the same thing I mean, I quite like 2012

Sam: year less chance of crucifixion. Nowadays, we're not without our problems, but disease and crucifixion being fed to lions being thrown face on a Germanic tribes.

Tom: Yeah, I know had its downside. I quite like Western medicine, Sam. I'll be honest with you are quite like televisions are like fan. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. Clearly, Given wasn't so He liked this period. So we get in the satires off. Juvenile was just a really quite aggressive attack on certain elements of Roman culture. And it's it's interesting from that perspective, because it's a really good insightful look. Att how the Romans lived. So the first start of so thing started,

Sam: you think by making a fart noise, I'm going to edit that out? No. So she

Tom: and even if I swear, you can still leave it in. So satellite begins with

Sam: something libelous. You best.

Tom: You have to be

Sam: in that out. No, no, no. You've named The celebrity may have named a celebrity, but I'm just gonna bleep it on. No one will ever know.

Tom: Really? Oh, touche, sir. Touche. Let me start again. I lost my tracer. So So the satellite satire 10 is structured in such a way that juvenile addresses five different sort of follies of man to the 1st 1 he starts with is the desire for wealth and ambition, and he uses the example off the poor traveler. The poor traveller doesn't give a monkey's. The poor traveler walks along the road whistling to himself, laughing in the face of Robert because he has nothing to steal. He's happy, whereas the wealthy traveler travels in fear travels, scared of his own shadow, shaking when he hears a distant sound of a leaf rustling because he has money has things to be stolen. Is that man happy? Well, I probably would argue that yes, possibly he is because they can afford bodyguards.

Sam: Yes, on food like for him is in fact, objectively brilliant. Yes,

Tom: he's got He's got a roof over his head. Absolutely. Where's the whistling idiot? It is never kind of a hard day's work in his life anyway. A large portion of the satire is dedicated to this chap called Lucius. Alias Ssa Joyner sits vaginas. That sounds a bit like vagina sluices, Alias said. Jonah said he heard of Sid Janus

Sam: I haven't? No.

Tom: And it's not, sir. Janus. It's S E J End, U. S s a genius. Sid Janus was a very ambitious and successful individual during the reign of type areas. And this is the first century a d. He grew his power in the Praetorian Guard, which we know is basically the Emperor's bodyguard, a sort of crack unit that protects the Emperor. So he rises up the ranks in the Praetorian Guard, he becomes the leader of the Praetorian gut. He in that position manages to develop the power of that body on also secures his position as a leader in the Praetorian Guard. He becomes very close to Tiberius, and as a result of that, there's a lot of envy amongst the Roman senatorial classes. And also Tiberius is immediate family on dhe part. That is also due to the fact that so Janus wasn't a question. So he wasn't of the same class as people that he was sort of influencing and who he was meddling with and mingling with

Sam: the questions. The nights are the Roman nights rather than lords and senators.

Tom: Absolutely, yes, absolutely. He's also sounds as if he's a very sneaky little slide plotter Sam C. Sounds like it is a clever clogs. He's the sort of person who can escalate up the social ranks quickly by being a sneaky sort. He

Sam: sounds like a bit of an arsehole.

Tom: Yeah, I mean, it's always difficult to know, isn't it? Because obviously the sources we read have their biases. But juvenile is definitely painting a picture of a not particularly pleasant person. Juvenile is setting. This chap he's using. This chap is an example off. What happens when you're overly ambitious, the tool, you other hearty fall. So Sir Janus manages to isolate Tiberius in Capri. And according to Juvenile, he's essentially the number two in the Empire. He is basically the emperor's right hand man looking after affairs. So it's the Janus is not very popular, particularly months Tiberius, his family. There's a suggestion, a suggestion that Sir Janus has plays a role in the death of a number of Tiberius. His son's the only one of Tiberius, his sons who actually survived at Altered is Caligula, who actually becomes an emperor

Sam: that would rile up the family if you were killing all of the children in the family. Absolutely if we're looking for a reason to hate it,

Tom: it all seems very conniving as well. Sam. He's not just stabbing someone in the Forum. It's it's a ll very conniving in there. So the suggestions that he was involved in this and suspicious circumstances here in the end the Senate and this this is, after all, so I better read. This is also after, so Genesis started purging the Senate. It's basically political rivals. His political rivals get the better of him, so he's written pretty much as high as he can. This a Janus chap. Andi. There's a plot against him. The stranglers of Janus. Throw him down the gym oniy in stairs, which understand, were in the centre of Rome on the public. Just tear this man apart, juvenile or lose to the fact that the public are incredibly fickle, which is where we get this wonderful famous phrase bread and circuses, so that comes from juvenile. So juvenile talks or old bread and games. So juvenile is basically saying that the public of fickle you know, they'll turn on anyone if it means that they can rip someone's body parts in the base of the Jamaican

Sam: steps. As we all know, that is completely true.

Tom: Now that I think about it, I can understand where Gibbon was coming from. Yes, you know, in the modern world, you know, allowed to rip apart. You know, successful social climbers. I

Sam: know, you know, and you know, more overtime. I lament the lack of big communal staircase is in today's in today's environment.

Tom: How from safety gone mad.

Sam: You car, throw someone down a disabled ramp. Can you?

Tom: Yeah, we could. It is what it is. Dramatic. They would just roll his friend. So this was a friend of Sir Jamie's brew. Tedious. He's lining up to kick the body. It just an indication from juvenile how hypocritical people are when it comes to social and political politics. This this chap Pretorius, lining up to kick the dead body of his his friends of Janus on but also making sure that his slave is there to witness it. Just it slave. Consider, spread the words bru. Teddy asses is a good man and enjoys kick in kick it. Thats as much as the next man.

Sam: A respectable man, one of us. What a

Tom: good chap. Anyway, here's the quote from juvenile by craving even more honors and seek an evermore wealth. He was building a lofty tower of numerous stories which meant that the four would be a ll, the greater So there you have it. So that's the futility of people aspiring, the high political office and greater wealth, et cetera. On the second fully sin that juvenile discusses is his eloquence. He talks about two famous orators. They lost the knees. I pronounce that right. The moss. The needs is quite a mouthful on Cicero

Sam: and much easier to pronounce

Tom: much easier. Dumas the knees was a Greek statesmen and famous orator on he committed suicide. After encouraging the Athenians to seek independence from acid in on dhe, he was captured on, say, just sort of popped his own clocks. He commits suicide. The Cicero. He was executed on the orders of Mark Antony because after the death of Caesar on the Ides of March, Cicero made Mark Antony political enemy by being quite aggressive in his attacks on Marc Antony and public operations. So Sister was killed and his seven hands and head were displayed on the rostrum, which I understand to be a place in ancient Rome where orations took place. Eso juvenile is using these examples off. Yeah, you want to be eloquent young men. They always want to be eloquent. They want to be the best orator in the class. They want to grow, become influential politicians. But look what happens to those people who are eloquent.

Sam: So it's basically don't be. Don't be a clever clogs. Is that what you say?

Tom: Absolutely. Nobody likes a smart Alec. The Third folly,

Sam: He stupid. Hey, stupid, don't talk proper.

Tom: Be dumb and ignorant. Yeah, The third thing is greatness. Juvenile was warning us against greatness. And God, I've got a bit of a frog in my throat. Sam, Was

Sam: that what they call chicken in the Curry house? That's exactly the thing you gave

Tom: Sam. Thank you.

Sam: Sorry. You could make it to know. Let it out. Whoever's funny, you

Tom: can have it. Juvenile points out with regard to greatness. So there are a lot of people that actually prefer greatness over goodness that's quite quite a poignant, isn't it? Sound really, ways that here's a quote, in fact, who in fact embraces goodness herself if you take away the rewards so he's being critical of people who actually only want to be seen as being good so they can achieve greatness. And I think we've all seen that with people's charitable behavior, their charitable, just so that people can see them being charitable rather than being charged because they think it's the right thing to do. Do you know talks about the desire for status and praise? But he also points out that you know, you get people have achieved fantastic things in their lives, and they have wonderful inscriptions on their grave. But that gravestone pulled apart by mere fig trees pulled apart by mere fig trees Over time, it becomes nothing in time, this person's achievements. And he uses the example of Hannibal, who we discussed in a pilot, didn't we? Hannibal, who despite all of his great achievements, ends up exiled, is a bit of a novelty at the quarter of Antiochus, the third of Syria, and he becomes just a story talked about by schoolchildren. You know, a story in a school book, and it's another nice quote. It is only death which reveals the puny size of human bodies. Are you starting to get a sense that juvenile was a miserable git sound.

Sam: Yes, I was just about to say he is quite the miser, isn't he? He's not a cheerful chap

Tom: is incredibly miserable. And you do get that when you're reading through here. It's

Sam: starting to sound a little bit if you don't mind me saying like, kind of an old school Communist was Coke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, He's very, very kind of anti intellectual, anti materialist.

Tom: It is coming across that way. Absolutely. On the conclusion of this sat, I gives us a bit more of an indication as to what is this guy's What a worldview. Waas. If you thought he was miserable thus far in his approach to wealth and greatness and a desire to be eloquent, listen to what he has to say about people who want a long lifespan. This kid's really I I'm not summer now. I'm not someone Sam who likes to throw around accusations of sexism or racism willy nilly, but I would suggest this is pretty ageist in the 21st century. How juvenile? How do you feel about aging? So this is how he describes old people, look at the face, misshapen and hideous beyond recognition instead of skin, you see misshapen hide, baggy cheeks and the kind of wrinkles that are etched on the aged jowls of an African ape. Wow. Okay. Love you, Granddad. Granddad loves you There. Your

Sam: face Me gray and pale

Tom: under dribbling out. Who knows?

Sam: Why didn't you die in your twenties? Withrow Youto the stairs

Tom: grand Argie Flatland far Khor You've talked about how young men always compare themselves to each other. They will send this person stronger than this person. This menace is faster. This person's got better looks. And then he says, But with old people and their snot running down their faces and the trembling voices and all the fucking same are they old people all look the same to me? Don't know. He talked about their toothless gums that the fact that they're repellent to their family, that horrible old, ugly people on they cannot taste anything. No sex listens. This is a quote, Sam. If you can't get any comic material out of this, I really have lost hope

Sam: audibly crack my knuckles.

Tom: I would have lost hope. This podcast, his shrunken tool with vain enlarged, just lies there on though caressed all night it will. Can you? It will continue to lie there. The wanking Oh, toothless, repellent man wanking all night. Wow, It is really a wonderful description of bullets. Like to be an old person.

Sam: It's a self fulfilling prophecy, really isn't because he clearly get didn't get invited to many dinner parties. Juvenile. I think that shows in his writings on I Think That perpetuated. It's probably not getting any more. It's

Tom: just a miserable git. He really is a miserable git. When you've read this.

Sam: Look at these people speaking properly. Look at these smart people. Look at his dick. Look at his Penis

Tom: for old people. Successful people. Fuck it. Hannibal Miserable, miserable

Sam: look at it with his money and his old cock hanging out look

Tom: vain. Enlarged talks about help. Old people, a deaf, their way sick. They got broken bones. They're blind. I don't know about you, Sam, but I think most people have had grand parents. Most people of experience, their grandparents, my grandparents seem to write. It was only the last couple of years. I mean, in all seriousness, this is in sight into what it was like to be elderly during the Roman empire. Isn't it again? Edward Gibbon

Sam: The Golden Hey,

Tom: Edward Gibbon clearly clearly wrote that, you know, decided he liked this period of time in history before he got old. God, absolutely

Sam: not. Werther's original insight.

Tom: No, no, no, not a word, Isn't it? Tucked right down the bottom of his pocket? Old people have really long, deep pockets. Don't know, Sam when they put the hand in to get the word is original and it just keeps going. Keeps good.

Sam: Just disappears out of the ranch.

Tom: It starts much higher up than everyone else's because they always wear their trousers so high, don't they? All people

Sam: have to be able to reach down to the bottom of their pockets. Don't

Tom: suppose so. There is a lot of logic. Yeah, absolutely. I guess that goes back to the Dunning Kruger effect, doesn't it, Sam? I was too stupid to realize that. That is why old people did it. I was ignorant. The last thing that juvenile sets his target on is good looking. Young men are fucked. Good looking, young room. Fucking your bloody old people.

Sam: So the right age to bay is young ish, which oddly is exactly. There is the juvenile happens to be at the time he's writing. His books

Tom: are Yeah, absolutely. And I get I get the impression it's more than just that. I think the only people with the world that juvenile things are happy. A juvenile. I brilliant every fucking

Sam: year anywhere. I can't wait to hear what he has to say about young people with presumably there throbbing or actions and excellent hearing.

Tom: It's not far from the truth, Sam. Beauty and virtue are rarely found together, so I would say he's really miserable. It wasn't a good looking boy will just be sold into sex slavery. That's all that's gonna happen. If you have a good looking boy, you will wish for it. You will wish to have a good looking boy. This is gonna be made a eunuch. Inevitable. Fucking inevitable. Which will be made into a eunuch. Listen to this quote. Nero would never rape a strike. Playing with Bandy legs or swollen belly and crooked back. Wow! Jesus Christ! It's bloody uplifting, isn't it? And he talks about how good looking young men they end up having affairs with older ladies and they become end up becoming the victim of vengeful husbands. It goes on to say that many of them will just end up stealing the wealth of this old cougar that they've been shagging. Listen to. This is another quote Salmon Again, if we can't get a few last out this we're not really working. We've got that no hope. I

Sam: have no words. I've got no I've got no comedy material left to give this guy's raising himself.

Tom: No, he's famous for his quote. Was that the one we came up with earlier bread and circuses? He's also famous for another quote. I'm gonna I'm gonna come to in a moment, but I'm surprised he's not more famous for this quote. Sam is poetic. It's beautiful. For what will any women deny to her clammy, crotch, clammy crotch? I don't want to repeat that.

Sam: Oh, crow for the audience. I just want I just want to put it out there. The art. Last week, when we were recording, I made a joke about wanking in the bath, and I got an email from Top. Say you have to cut that bit out. Our audience have standards, low standards, but standards. I just want that to be known as a CZ. We discussed the clammy crotches of the Roman.

Tom: I'd like to point out this isn't me time. I don't find this a tall, mature, a tall I think this is incredibly disgusting. I'm really I am merely quoting a historical source. I I'm I liked I I would love to be Nile Rod who set his translation. I'm reading here. I'd love to have seen him when he came across this in the original Latin and thought, How am I gonna translate that on? That's the talent of it, isn't it? That's a talent of a good translator. How can they just get the feel the feel for what you have? No was trying to say in his original text. Clammy crotch that see

Sam: the sign of a really good translator or an absolutely abysmal What?

Tom: Well, what? He's just taking the piss. What is? Nothing. Clammy. Can't stay. Um, it's like when we were kids. Me and my me and my siblings. We had a dictionary. I know we were clever, Sam. We were brought up in a good home.

Sam: Oh, juvenile would have words with you. May

Tom: your fracking reading books improving vocabulary wankers. And if you looked up, if you looked up fart or breaking wind coming what it was the definition was a small explosion between the legs. I could not. We could not help it feel like the post prudish dictionary was this fantastic? Isn't it a fact that I can't help but feel the person who wrote that was slightly taking the piss? A small explosion between the legs. So these poor, attractive young men, what's inevitably gonna happen to them if they're not turned into units and buggered by Nero, they could end up finding a on old cougar whose wealth they want to steal. They get killed by a vengeful husband because the old cougar can't do anything when a clammy crutches directing things anyway, we're

Sam: golden age Thom Yorke, a

Tom: golden age of clammy crutches. It come. We come to another famous quote actually sound. We don't think you that this is an interesting, an interesting bit of knowledge. The phrase mens SANA incorporates Arnaud. I probably haven't pronounced that correctly again, because although I learned Latin toe on a level standard at university, I soon forgot it. Mens SANA incorporate Sarno, which is a healthy mind in a healthy body or sound mind in a sound body. So that's that. That's a juvenile quote.

Sam: Marvelous. And what is, Ah, clammy crotch in Latin?

Tom: Oh, and a sound that could be something we can put out to listeners. Sam.

Sam: Any historians with any kind of qualification listening? Firstly, my profuse apologies on Secondly, if you If you could consult your English Latin Dictionary on DA translate clammy crotch back into latitude, be very much appreciated.

Tom: The conclusion to this satire, Number 10 is basically juvenile, saying Whatever will be will be. Pray for a tranquil life on. Be good, Be a good person. If you're a good person, you'll have a tranquil life. That's basically what you know, decides at the end to

Sam: be a poor, ugly, stupid 30 year old.

Tom: So there you go. There's lives. Juvenile satire Number 10.

Sam: You know what that is? Definitely my favorite. That is definitely my favor of juvenile satyrs.

Tom: Wait a second, Sam. You said at the start you'd never read student sat eyes.

Sam: No, but it can't. It can't get better than this.

Tom: I saw I was selected with which one I chose. But there are some other funny ones. There's stuff about eunuchs. This stuff is set against homosexual promiscuity.

Sam: Basically all the things the Romans really liked. Yes, yes, because the Romans, very the Romans, very much into the homosexuality, very much into public, speaking very much into wealth very much into older, older ladies in a bear's very much into Unix very much into being assaulted sexually by Nero. All of the good stuff.

Tom: It's actually right, plotting very much into plotting in political circles.

Sam: They love to good plots.

Tom: Absolutely. There's a theme that runs through juvenile sat eyes on my thigh. From what I understand, this is a very common he

Sam: was a grumpy,

Tom: grumpy git. And as far as I'm aware, this is quite common with a lot of Roman writers in the early empire, which is a belief that the Romans of the Republic era, you know, time of the sunlight, wars and the Punic Wars, et cetera, were a purer folk, you know, they were there were better people. They were They didn't

Sam: have to say, Everyone, this is everyone in history thinks this something is this. Even today, you want to go back to some kind of supposing golden age. It wasn't golden. It was shite. You've just got rose tinted vision.

Tom: Some. You know what? I was gonna go. I wanted to say the same thing. I'm glad we

Sam: owe you. Say it to you. Are you have your

Tom: You know what I like Some. I like people who look at pictures of their, for example, their grand parents back in the 19 fifties and sixties and they look at it. Ah, better time. A pure a time. No, it fucking wasn't It wasn't it. All in the US, black people were still second class citizens. You know, women couldn't vote. Homosexuality was still illegal in the UK until the mid sixties, wasn't it? There was still don't get me started on these roads tinted glasses that people were.

Sam: Oh, the 19 forties. The 19 forties were a lovely time where they 19 forties. But when people have respect for their elders are yeah love not being able to go out at night because of the bombings and then getting polio that was cracking. I like that.

Tom: And people people look back on how, for example, young men behaved, you know, back in. Let's go. Second World war. They assume young men during the Second World War marched off dutifully to the Second World War and behaved themselves wonderfully throughout. Just fought for old Blighty. Did they fuck? My granddad used to say that when the first thing that the British soldiers did when they got the car Rose went to the fucking whore houses.

Sam: Tell us another story, Granddaddy. Tell us a story about the law,

Tom: about how he saw Alice or load of Anzac. So that's Australian New Zealand soldiers having a massive brawl on the train station platform in Cairo. It's all bollocks.

Sam: That's next week's topic on that was genius.

Tom: Juvenile's had an effect on me, Sam. I'm feeling more miserable. It's a talking of rich. What is gonna be next week's topic? I can I have make a suggestion here.

Sam: You can absolutely make a suggestion. Yes,

Tom: because when I was researching topics for this week for stupidity, I looked into con artists who I think con artists could be a good topic.

Sam: Oh, that's brilliant. Yes, yeah. Oh, I like that.

Tom: You know, it's a lovely that's a retired

Sam: U. That is a lovely sight. There's nothing more to say about that? Is there a tart from possibly reiterating clammy crotches?

Tom: Is there going to be the name of this

Sam: episode? Oh, I really wish it could be Sh I think that might get flagged. Inappropriate. I'm very broadcasting platforms. I do hope you have enjoyed this podcast. If you have, please do. Let us know. Follow us on all of your favorite social media platforms. We're on Facebook. If you search for that was genius. We are on Instagram. That was genius. All one word. No spaces on on Twitter that underscore Waas underscored genius. Three different platforms. Why not have three very slightly different user names you can. You can also send us an email. If you have any fun historical facts, we'd love to share them. We won't bother fact checking them because we're lazy and have very little time on our hands. Eh? So basically we'll spelt any old shit that you send us the e mail addresses. That was genius. Cast at gmail dot com Onda That is pretty much it from this week. I personally think this has been the best one yet without a shadow of a doubt. It's had drama has had intrigue It's Hades. Profuse swearing and that is exactly what you want. Isn't on a Thursday morning?

Tom: Yes, I think it is. Absolutely. That's what I would listen to on the commute to work.

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. You keep your headphones in is probably something I should have warned at the beginning. Too late. Now there is no on dawn. That note. We'll see you next week later in a very silly mood now.