Hello, thanks for checking out the transcript for That Was Genius Episode 6: A Walking Tambourine of Human Military Excellence.

These transcripts are machine generated, and therefore have quite a lot of errors in them - we've tried both human and machine transcription and they are honestly as bad as each other, so this is what we've got for now. Unfortunately, it takes about three hours to go through and clean up the transcripts for each episode, and with dozens of episodes, we can't squeeze it in at the moment. BUT we've put these up in the hope they might help slightly. We care about all our audience, especially those with hearing or other conditions, and we're hoping to find a cost-effective way of giving you transcriptions very soon.

Want to hear the episode? Find it here, or on your favourite podcast app!

TuneIn: http://bit.ly/GeniusTuneIn
Spotify: http://bit.ly/TWGSpotify
iTunes: http://bit.ly/TWGitunes


Tom: Sam, can we tweak it slightly and just get a different theme with our instagram page and just have every day a different picture of us posing with our budget? Because, as you know, I work in the fitness industry and I find it remarkable that there are people on instagram with millions of followers on DL. They do Every day is a picture of their ass in a different location.

Sam: I'll give you 1/2 and half with this you can take If

Tom: I have one budget

Sam: you can have. You can have a photo of your bum on our instagram every day, but it has to have a speech, but we're coming out of it telling him Incorrect historical fact catch tag. Thomas talking out of his ass way Just troll the fitness industry on Instagram. He's just put a picture of a giant chest of gold with hashtag booty Gains

Tom: are gonna go to my Pirot o r Hello, everyone.

Sam: Sam here. If you like this podcast,

Tom: would you do us

Sam: a favor and subscribe and review us on your favorite app? It'll really help us grow right? That's quite enough begging. Let's get on with the podcast all.

Tom: Hello, Sam. How are you?

Sam: Fabulous. Tom, how you doing?

Tom: I'm very good, Sam. It's This is a bit of a flip reversal, isn't it? Because it's my morning in your evening.

Sam: It is. We've just messed it all up. We've messed with our heads. Water started running the wrong way. The sun sets in the morning and everything is wrong. And the apocalypse is here.

Tom: The end of days. I've had a cup of tea as well, so I'm a little bit more perky than I'd normally be. I usually do this about 10 o'clock in the evening on a Friday. It's Monday morning. I'm fresh. I've had some tea. I've got some juice next to me. I'm ready to roll.

Sam: Wonderful. Andi, I've just come back from a slightly heavy weekend in Cornwall and therefore will be talking slower on dhe. Slightly more sleep early than normal. Excellent.

Tom: Excellent. Let's see how this goes. Yes. Now what's our topic? What did we agree upon? Conmen wasn't a

Sam: con Men Episode six is all about historic conmen. On what a brilliant bloody topic.

Tom: Thank you very much. I don't think so.

Sam: My compliments to the topic, Chef And

Tom: who did you

Sam: choose? Now I have chosen history's greatest con man, Gregor McGregor. So good. They named him twice.

Tom: Yeah, that's a little bit like Edward Woodward, isn't

Sam: it? It's a bit like in wood wood, wood.

Tom: So I haven't heard of this chap, Gregor McGregor, but he's widely perceived as one of the greatest con men ever. Is it?

Sam: Yes, he is. He is a man who scammed thousands of people out of millions of pounds whilst causing hundreds of deaths. So all round and impress an impressive legacy of destruction

Tom: all on his own,

Sam: all on his Tod.

Tom: Wow. So it didn't have a country to help him, you know, like a Pol pot. Oh, brek related all on his

Sam: own. Well, it's funny that you should mention that, Tom, because his scam, as we will shortly find out, was to create his own country.

Tom: Oh, how if I never heard this? Yeah. This is gonna be great fun. I've gone, but we've done a lot of what's the oldest thing we've done so far. It's 2700. And it was your story. I forgot the names.

Sam: It was the goddess Ishtar and her love story from ancient Sumerian times.

Tom: Almost 3000 years BC I'm now gonna do the latest thing we've done well. We've done Second World War with Old Leo. Measure on Willie. Our snow on. I'm I'm coming over later. I'm going into the 19 eighties. Brazilian football, Sam.

Sam: Many would consider that not history.

Tom: Oh, Sam.

Sam: But I will

Tom: it no history. And this just happened is history, Sam, Anything that's just happened. I wasn't originally going to do this chapter when I suggested conmen. I've come. I've discovered some other good stories. But I stumbled across this individual and just thought it was very colorful and thought he had another dimension to our podcasts. So yes.

Sam: Well, I'm happy. Too unhappy to go with it. I think an eighties Brazilian footballer sounds excellent on. In fact, my story today takes place in South America as well.

Tom: Oh, there you go. Nice South American flavor. How are we gonna toss something South American to decide who goes

Sam: first? I do. I have anyone South American to hand to talk since it is the question.

Tom: Manuel. Manuel, where are you? Manuel, when I need you.

Sam: Uh right. I

Tom: have a straw donkey or

Sam: I don't have a straw. Dawn keeper in fine tradition. I actually had my wallet with me today, but in tradition, I will not be tossing something from my wallet.

Tom: Okay, So what have you got available in front of you

Sam: today? Tom? We are going to be flipping my passport.

Tom: Oh, excellent. Very good. Have you got one of those new digital ones?

Sam: I do have one of these new digital ones. It has a photo of me that actually looks like may. Unlike my old passport, which had a photo of me with shoulder length blond, curly hair. It was a bet that I lost. And it is the worst photo in the world. I put it up on our instagram so that you can see just how awful I used to look.

Tom: Yeah, I do remember that hair. I think Sam, it wasn't the greatest, was it?

Sam: It was not the greatest Look.

Tom: Okay, so you flip your passport. What? I'll say we got the front would be the British crest, Would it?

Sam: The front will be the British crest. I am going to fold it open. So it's either the British crest or a Chinese visa.

Tom: Excellent. But when did you go to China?

Sam: I went to China in July this year

Tom: with a holiday or business

Sam: holiday, and it was absolutely lovely. I had a wonderful time. Despite its dubious human rights records, It's an amazing country to visit. And having said that, I will never be invited back.

Tom: Yeah. Okay, let's flip

Sam: it. Flip it. Passport. I got I don't know if anyone heard that. So I'm gonna just rustle against the microphone. Which side you calling? Tom?

Tom: I'm calling Chinese Visa.

Sam: Unfortunately, it landed on the crest. Her Majesty's Own Crest s so I'm gonna let you go first. My decision is

Tom: your decision is excellent.

Sam: Yeah. I structured that sentence very badly for a native English speaker. Decision is going to let you go first.

Tom: That's more like it. There was no awkward pause. Our

Sam: words. I use words I use. Well,

Tom: I suppose I was waiting. Surely there is more to come. No, no, no. There's Mr Pause. I'm

Sam: very late on a Sunday for May.

Tom: It's like when your granddad give you an anecdote, isn't it? And it just comes to a unsatisfying end,

Sam: Slightly less racism than the

Tom: grandparents. Yeah, it's like more casual racism. Anyway, as I've mentioned Brazilian football in the 19 eighties, let's just set the scene here sound. Brazil, as we all know, is a country's synonymous with the game of football.

Sam: Even I know that

Tom: even up with Yeah, I was thinking this would be quite funny sounding a football, such you're not on unsporting personal. You, Sam. You're an active person, but you're not like a game z person. You don't follow cricket.

Sam: No, be no, not at all. I still think that if you ask me who England's goalkeeper was, I would say David Seaman, And that's not even joking.

Tom: And you only know that because his surname has innuendo. Connor. You know, it's been innuendo, isn't it? So I might have to do quite a lot of explaining around football terms, so we'll see how we go.

Sam: That's fine. Take your time. We've got an hour,

Tom: see how we get. So let's set the scene. 19 eighties Brazilian football. The Brazilian national team had won the War Cup three out of four times between 1958 1970 who won the fourth. Come on, Sam.

Sam: Uh, what years. Are we talking?

Tom: So this is between 1958 1970. So we've been 58 62 6

Sam: to do. I know this.

Tom: Go on.

Sam: Was it England?

Tom: Oh, well done, Sam. Excellent.

Sam: Aiken do football. I'm a lad, lad. Lad.

Tom: Yeah, well done. Good work. So, yes, the only the only other team was England that wanted men on dhe. I'm gonna talk about Carlos Enrique Raposo, also known as Car Lost Kaiser. And he was called Carlos Kaiser after Franz Beckenbauer of you heard Franz Beckenbauer? No. He was a famous German defensive midfielder, slash sweeper from the 19 seventies, widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time on Dhe. His nickname was Keyser. And supposedly the two of them had a bore. A resemblance. So Carlos Enrique Raposo was was called Carlos Kaiser. So he was good looking charismatic. Hey was frequently in the newspapers and on television. He had a beautiful mullet, which was essential for any player of 1980.

Sam: Yes. Now you're talking language that I understand. Now you're in my historical cultural ballpark because if there's anything I know it's an eighties mullet.

Tom: It's a beautiful eighties mullet.

Sam: That's going to be hot on the streets of Rio, though, isn't it?

Tom: Absolutely and hot in all the right senses. Sample. Yeah, he was a lady's man, this guy

Sam: business in the front, Pleasure in the back, sweaty all over.

Tom: What's that? What he called it was in part, What do they call it? Formula? The front party in the back. That's That's the Muller, isn't it? And Carlos Kaiser. He got his first contract with a team in Mexico at the age of 16. This guy was, Hey, came from nothing. So they had adopted parents. He was basically just left out on the streets by his original parents. Andi. He was brought up kind of in pretty much of a fellow. I think he was brought up in Samaria between two of them. They basically had a pretty rough background, was brought up playing football on the streets of Rio with whatever he could find on at the age $16 1st contract in Mexico. He went on to play for all of the major Rio de Janeiro clubs. Let's go through these and see if I can pronounce him properly. Obata Fogo, Flume Inn ends Flamengo on Vasco de Gama

Sam: You could really have strung any number of continents together there, and I would be none the wiser assed. Far as I'm aware, you've just read out some nonsense rolled all poem

Tom: thing is the beauty of this topic. Sam. Talk anything and you you wouldn't be a question

Sam: of my favorite team. Is Flo Buildup Athletic

Tom: Global war athletic. Very nice. He also went on to play in France with a team called Gazza Lech Ajaccio. I probably haven't pronounced that very well. Let's try that again. In a more French accent, goes the Lego Josh. Ooh, is that better?

Sam: I was transported to the to the terraces with a baguette in hand, on a glass of wine, and whatever they do it, French purple matches a baguette pi

Tom: that the French have quite different to the British when it comes to sporting events, aren't they? Have you ever watched Six Nations rug?

Sam: They don't set fire to nearly as many things. Anybody get trashed, got that honorable mention to the Russians as well.

Tom: If you have a watch, your Six Nations. When one of the home nations plays France,

Sam: I have at some point in the past, but you'll you'll have to fill everyone in again on this and May.

Tom: Yes, it's quite funny because whenever they whenever, for example, England in the Six Nations, which for those of you who are not from the U. K is a big rugby tournament played annually. In fact, I think the Six Nations is one of the biggest spectator sports in the world for the number of people following it. At that, the actual stadiums anyway, the six nations. So if, for example, England gunplay France in France, the French footage always pans to someone with a berry on the sidelines. Painting the match very has a very French feel to it

Sam: surely should have someone on the sidelines mining the match in a berry. Which, by the way, I would love to see

Tom: you. I would love to see someone receiving a high tackle is a minor. My receiving high tackle. That'd be fantastic. Booth being dumped, tackled. I was about to say you have a group of mimes, but that would kind of defied the point of being in mind.

Sam: What you're essentially did with a large group of mimes is you've just removed the ball from the game of rugby.

Tom: Sam, if you've ever played low level rugby before in the UK, you don't really need a ball to be Sam. It's not dissimilar to what you've just described

Sam: it. May I have? I was forced to play it at school.

Tom: Yeah, random fighting, different corners of the pitch, people running aimlessly. Oh yeah, that's the game of rugby. It's beautiful to watch a high level, pretty shit to watch it a low level anyway. So Carlos Kaiser plays a little bit in the French second division he plays in Texas that houses for football team's name for the El Paso six shooters. Only Americans could come up with that as a football team name, couldn't they? No

Sam: offense to any of her American listeners out there, particularly those based in El Paso. But that is the worst bloody team name I have heard in my life. I'm trying very hard, by the way, not to drop in F bomb here, but that is a pretty flipping bad team name.

Tom: Hey, guys, let's go watch El Paso. Six shooters. Thea Americans have tried to try to change up football quite a few times, haven't they? They've proposed changes to the game to make it more American and where you can score more points from different parts of the pitch and all these sort

Sam: of things they tried to ruin. It is what they have.

Tom: They basically have, haven't they? Sam? It's like when you speak to American about cricket, you explain to them that a test cricket match you can play for five days and it'll end in a drawer. They just look confused.

Sam: You have eyes would look at me. I do look confused.

Tom: You know you don't like quick Arkady don't like

Sam: cannot for the life of May and you're I know you're loving this idea. I cannot for the life me fathom why anyone would spend five days watching two groups of men. You can't even tell what side they're on unless you're racially profiling them because they were the same bloody color ms. They break every so often for sandwiches, which I believe are traditionally prepared by the wives of the players and then end of five days, everyone goes home.

Tom: That's great and that you may or may not have a winner on the weather. May have may have ruined things a little bit for you, but Sam cricket is like life. Sam. You can slug each other's guts out for five days and you know what? There is no result. That's life. So you can try your hardest for a long period of time in all sorts of different weather on Do you know what? You come to the end of it and nobody's really one

Sam: that is cricket. It's a long, hard struggle with very little reward at the end.

Tom: It's great. I love I love watching cricket. Anyway, let's get back. So I got the El Paso six shoelace and he also plays in Mexico as well. So it plays. It plays in a number of countries and for some big clubs, the big Four Rio de Janeiro clubs they're quite famous clubs that this is the problem. No, Sam, he didn't really play for any of them. What? Carlos Kaiser wanted to be a footballer, but he didn't want to play football. He was basically I mean, it is the theme for this week is con artist. So, you know, he basically wasa big con artist. Let's try and pick out what's true here. He did sign contracts for these clubs that I've mentioned. He did play for teams in different parts of the world on He wasa good player when he was younger, when he was 16 he was a good football player. But he was a chronic liar during his career and after his career. And it's quite difficult work out what's true and what's not true with his story. It just jumped from club to club. He never really played any matches and he managed this for 13 years ago. Well,

Sam: well, How did how did you manage to get away with being transferred from club to club? Because even as a non football fan, I understand that your value in football as a football player inherently comes and rises from your ability to play football, as demonstrated by your appearance in occasional matches off the game. Football?

Tom: Absolutely. And he This guy had fantastic tricks. He wouldn't get away with it today. With widespread media, he was able to get away with it back in the eighties because nobody could really question him. Nobody could go on YouTube and question the fact that he said he played for a certain club or go on Wikipedia and find out you know who plays for the team. But they could

Sam: have rung the clubs and checked.

Tom: Yeah, yes, that is true. There's certainly a lack of a lack of due diligence by some of the clubs. You can't help but feel

Sam: it. Is there any explanation for how he managed to get away with this?

Tom: Absolutely. This is what I'm gonna come onto. So he had various tactics for achieving this, and they are really quite amusing. Back in Rio de Janeiro, there's a term for sort of street smart hustlers, and it's a mil andro, someone who is charismatic, witty, sharp, intelligent and can manipulate people. And he was basically one of these people.

Sam: I mean, just the militar loan would have given him. All of those

Tom: are definitely charisma. Mullikin,

Sam: definitely TV

Tom: charisma. So he had various ruse is that he adopted the 1st 1 was just a feign injury. Quite simply, it was certainly in the early part of his career he was fit so he would turn up to a club. He would start their preseason training, which is generally where you don't kick a football around too much. Just do lots of fitness training and he would excel at the fitness training on. What would that happen is as they phased into into the season, he would deliberately get injured or he would fain and injuries that he didn't have to play any matters. We did have to kick a ball around, even me. Even an example towards the end of his career when he's playing for a club called Pan that primaries. I think again, I do apologize for my pronunciations of all of these Brazilian names and they actually offers a defender. I'm doing a training session of payment to slide, tackle him an injury just to get out of playing on this con starts from his very first club. This starts from the first club called Puebla in Mexico. When he was 16 he started fainting injuries.

Sam: You know why? Why did he want to be a footballer but didn't want to play for football?

Tom: Well, I think we're gonna get onto this just

Sam: like I did feel like I should probably ask the question at some point. Why did he do this? He was a good footballer.

Tom: He did so I thought, I think he wasn't good enough. I mean, this is Brazil we're talking about. See, he was probably what we would consider to be a good standard football of someone who could play lower league football. But he was never talented enough to get to the top tier and actually make a living out of it. But he wanted the girls he wanted. Righto, go to the clubs. He wanted the lifestyle he wanted the influence on probably also the money s o. So I think this is where it all came from. He probably had a realization early in his career that it probably wasn't good enough to make it and actually make a living out of it anyway, So feigning injuries was one of his tricks, but he was a lot clever in that he actually developed the network of journalists as well. Through his career on those journalists would write completely make believe articles about him that he would print off and take with him to different clubs to get himself signed up for the contract. So, as an example, this is when you get this is probably his Mexican team. When he was only 16 he got a journalist to write an article about how he was offered Mexican citizenship to play for Mexico because they loved him so much, which is complete bollocks, a sz Far as my research tells me, he also had a short period of plain of France's have mentioned on Dhe when he returned to Brazil when he was looking to return to Brazil, he got a journalist to write an article portraying him as the club's top scorer for eight years. He never played a match. Hey never blamed that this French club let let's go to go on and had that network of journalist friends. But he also had a network of famous pretty good deed. He was just a bare faced liar.

Sam: Props to the guy.

Tom: It is absolutely, and obviously nobody checked this. Nobody decided to pick up the phone and found the club and ask, and he just said, This is what I am. They believed him. Then he had a network of famous Brazilian footballers. As friends as well. I'll give you a list of these, Sam, you're probably not gonna nine you these, but some people listening may know

Sam: something. I'll make a cup of tea Whilst you read these off

Tom: Carlos Alberto Torrez. He was the captain of the 1917 Brazilian walk up winning team. It's a famous player. Ricardo Russia. 1919 94 World Cups for Brazil's They won the 1994 World Cup. Sam Renato Gaucho had 41 caps for Brazil. In fact, not a couch. Oh, so this is a sort of thing that Carlos guy that would do So Renato Gaucho try to get into a club one evening a Rio club at about 3 a.m. So actually one morning. And he's told by the bounces to stop being such a big fibber because rata gotcha is already in the club. It wasn't romantic. It was. Carlos kinds of impersonates his Brazilian famous football of friends to get into clubs. Not only that, son, he actually slept with gills pretending to be Renato Gaucho and got a lot of trouble with his wife. Pretended to be in Brazilian football. So you actually got in trouble with his wife, This guy?

Sam: Aye, lad.

Tom: He's certainly a bit of a trickster. He also pretended to be famous footballer. There was an Argenti Argentinean player that played for an Argentinean club called Independent Independent Problem Plants. That right either it was called Carlos Enrique.

Sam: You've not made this one easy for yourself. Have you thought about what you're not doing? The accents either? Are most disappointed.

Tom: I can you do Brazilian accent.

Sam: I don't actually know what a Brazilian accent sounds like. It would be Spanish, wouldn't it?

Tom: Well, I sort of ended up being a rich Italian when I tried anyway. So he would pretend to be Carlos Enrique, who is an Argentinian football player, played for completely different club, and that club had won lots of competitions in 1984 including the Intercontinental Cup against Liverpool in 1984. And so he would pretend to be this person because nobody could see the You know, there was no clear footage of this spy plane on, so he could

Sam: could be any guy with a mullet.

Tom: Well, basically, and his name was Carlos Enrique. So if he had audio recording of a commentator shouting and Carlos Enrique scored, he could play that people would think it was him. He also pretended to be a Brazilian under 21 player called Enrique, and actually had press cuttings and video footage of this guy that he would carry around and gives people to get contracts at clubs On best of all, he once judged a beauty contest with two other famous footballers, and he pretended to be in a play called Carlos Eduardo, who was actually black and you got away with it. So I pretended to be someone who is a completely different race to him. Got away.

Sam: Ah, that's amazing. That is ballsy.

Tom: That's that whole instant pretty much sums this guy up sleazy beauty contest, judging, pretending to be someone who's completely different. So he got these opportunities with these famous footballers, who he mingled with, and he sort of the the more he went from club to club, the more players he was able to mingle with. Sweet created this nice network, and he was also then able to connect a network with more influential people in football club owners, sponsors, all those sort of people. There's a funny incident later on in his career with this chap called for Beto when he was playing for Vasco de Gama, where he was actually a bit past it later on in his career. He was a bit heavy, bit too much, drinking, bitter about sleeping with the girls. He had lost that that famous preseason fitness that used to be at a show off on that The team were in training and they were playing a game. It's very, very simple. Common came played in football training, where a group of players are passing the ball around in a circle. One player is in the middle trying to get the books. It's basically piggy in the middle of a carcass. Kaiser basically gets stuck, get stuck in the middle of the show shit on and so unfit on these be surrounded by such talented football players. He's just running around like a headless chicken, completely unable to get to

Sam: know that what you've done their time in two sentences is summed up my entire primary and secondary school p and sports less experience of one sentence, which it's a hard thing, really, To know that I could have been a professional footballer and still been in that situation.

Tom: I know if you just just needed that little bit more. I mean, you are a charismatic guy, Sam.

Sam: There's a little bit of Kaiser in all of us.

Tom: Yeah, You just needed a little bit more. Little bit more of that charisma. He did get caught out a little bit. He was playing for Fluminense and he got caught by the coach. This is a coach would coach the Brazilian football team. And eight spotted him straightaway. Was like, Who is this donkey? Is this donkey that it's turning up to my training sessions and he gave him the boot. So it was It wasn't all Rosie

Sam: didn't think to tell the other clubs in Rio that I suppose. Actually, it's to his benefit to not tell the other comes in Rio

Tom: year at this donkey. Absolutely. I'll put you

Sam: on trial for a

Tom: Yeah. Is this fantastic? Please take. I'm gonna give you, give you a really good deal on him

Sam: to free transfer.

Tom: It's a pretty free Dressel. That's good, Sam. That was good. That was like a technical term. The you there in football, A free transfer.

Sam: Maybe I'm just not letting on my deep and intense love and knowledge of the beautiful game.

Tom: His trial at this French club he got as a result of another famous football local popular Barris. But I can't help but feel Sam that there was a bit of leveraging going on here. So I think we get the impression with Carlos Kaiser that he was very charismatic and fun to be around. So he got away with a lot of things because people actually enjoyed being with him was a bit of a party animal. But there is a suggestion, maybe that he was leveraging people as well. So when he was at this French club, the captain of the French team was very straight laced on DK. Alice Kaiser would arrange parties with prostitutes, girls, et cetera. On this straight laced captain of the of the French football team ended up wandering off with a hooker on dhe. From what I've read, Carlos Kaiser

Sam: used that. I'm not entirely sure that we shouldn't nick a word allegedly in here.

Tom: Yeah, this is even 1980.

Sam: This is the rumor. I'm sure they're both still alive. And therefore it never happened.

Tom: Yes, it's here. There's sort of allegations is allegedly suspicions. Maybe he was leveraging these people as well to get himself longer contracts, et cetera. It's sort of the case that he had nothing to lose. He was a single guy fucking around, basically being a con artist. But the other people did have something to lose, so potentially had a bit there. There were a few other things he attempted. So when he was playing for club called Bang Go Bangu and that is the club's name, Bangu, the club owner got bit fed up with him so and demanded that he plays a substitute in a match. Andi, Carla Skies was thinking, Oh, shit, this is I'm gonna be My rules will be up. I can't I can't do this. So as he's warming up, up and down the touchline, he hears the opposition crowd yelling A bit of abuse, which is a South American football match. I don't think that's particularly uncommon. Having what South American football on TV and say decided to climb over the fence and start a fight with the crowd knowing that he'd get sent off, they wouldn't have to play

Sam: smart, get the shit kicked out of it.

Tom: Yeah, it took a few hits for that one, just to top things off Sam after the match, but it's such a smart Alec, he actually in the changing rooms was confronted by the club owner. Who said, Why the hell did you do that on Dhe Carlos Kaiser? That explains that they were insulting his mother. They're insulting the club owner and the club owner's mother. And all these sort of things have been really unpleasant. And so after he explains that to the club owners club expenses contract. Talk about talk about turning a negative into a positive. What a man. What happened

Sam: to him? Tom, What happened to him?

Tom: He's now actually think he's a fitness trainer Now. He works at the gym, is a fitness trainer. By all accounts, he trains female bodybuilders on DSO, still being a letch. But he is still

Sam: alive. And so therefore, I feel like we should say, unless he's admitted publicly these dental this, that it's all a story.

Tom: It's all alleged. Has he ever

Sam: commented on this?

Tom: How I stumbled Crosses is it's actually been made into a film in 20 in 2018 it was made into a film, and there's also a book that was written in 2018 as well, and I completely stumbled across the story I've never heard it before it's actually film. It's a book he's been quite open about, that you can go on the Internet and see the trailer for the film. Absolutely. I may have got something some of the bits of information slightly incorrect. But the generally this is all this is all open. This is all out there. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to be that unusual in South American football in the eighties. Toe have a slightly loony character in your football team. Some clubs seemed tohave that person because they were just good for morale. They would be the person that arranged the social media events and was always there on pitches mucking around. And occasionally they would train with basically the mascot exactly right there, basically the mascot of the team.

Sam: It's just some mad bloke who hangs around with E like the local, like the local character. A village pub.

Tom: Yeah, all the village cricket team going back to the subject of cricket. If you've ever played village cricket, there's always some frickin nutcase.

Sam: You know that this is how desperate my my little village. So my family live in the new forest on my dad passed away a few years ago. But when he was alive, he only had one leg. He only had one leg when he was dead as well. Uh, he only had one leg when he was alive on our village cricket team. Was so desperate for players that they tried to recruit my one legged father as a cricketer.

Tom: Excellent. Oh dear. I'm sure. Now, Sam, I This is disappointing, Sam. Because had you known much about cricket, I could have cracked a fantastic joke and we could have

Sam: a short leg.

Tom: Even better field a fine leg.

Sam: I don't know, but I'm sure it's hilarious.

Tom: Oh, it was a cracking jokes out, but I had to pull out. Pull out. You won't really get it

Sam: ready. Cricket fans listening Do send in the sound of your laughter a grand. We'll put some of it up on social media just to prove that it was a funny joke. I'm gonna have to take your word for it

Tom: filled fielding positions and cricket. One of the funniest things. I think people who don't know much about cricket the names of very, very

Sam: straight. They have some bizarre names, don't they?

Tom: Leg, leg slip. Golly, short, mid off short, mid on square leg, deep midwicket. Very odd. It sounds like

Sam: the bloody shipping four cars.

Tom: This is very odd. If you don't know the game of cricket gully, it's it's very odd. It's very odd if you put yourself in the shoes of somebody's never followed cricket, say yeah anyway, go back to Carlos Kaiser. So the writers, I think it was the writers of the film. I spoke to a Knox Bridge psychologist. I may have this information slightly wrong, but I think I read it somewhere on this psychologist said that this Carlos Kaiser guy was a top top con artist based on all of the things he managed to achieve right up. We're there with the chap, Frank Abbot

Sam: Frank. Yeah, Big Nail. Julian Ali. How

Tom: do you pronounce that big, gnarly,

Sam: Big Gnarly, I think, is how they pronounce it in the film. Catch me if you can't. Yes, played, of course, by Leo DiCaprio. Excellent film. It was Tom Hanks

Tom: got Tom Hanks and I haven't seen that film for a while.

Sam: Yeah, he's the FBI. Guy was trying to catch your money.

Tom: Ah, very good with he's got Tom Hanks in It's Gonna Be Good. So there is the story. Some of Carlos Kaiser.

Sam: Amazing. What an absolute lad and probably a sociopath, but one absolutely,

Tom: absolutely, definitely a sociopath

Sam: on who plays him in this film who who plays him in the film of his life.

Tom: It's not a big film, it's not. It's not got any big stars in itself. It's one of those films that you pick up in DVD, and it could be very good, but it's never gonna make much money. The city miles so I don't think it has any. A list is B. Listers or C List is starring in it

Sam: because you want kind of, ah, a dull flung Graham type for him, wouldn't you? Kind of suave, German looking guy very charismatic of all. He doesn't stare at you and say words and you believe everything that's happening

Tom: back in the 80 soundoff long room with your delist action hero wasn't a he was your delist action star. You had Sly Stallone Arnie over your top level ones

Sam: perfect to play a D list football.

Tom: Yeah, absolutely perfect to play dealing. And then you have you you know, you got your B list would be someone that Stevens ago. Or is your Claude

Sam: maybe Jean Claude to be good for it?

Tom: Sure. Claude found them,

Sam: particularly the scene where he impersonates the black footballer. I think would be

Tom: you. Yeah. How did you know? Yeah, I'm not sure how that worked.

Sam: Uh, amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Tom: Like golf. I like Dolph Lundgren is a good guy. Did you have a watch? He man back in the in the late 18.

Sam: Oh, yeah.

Tom: You see, you've seen the heat. But you've seen him on the film. How? How? Dolph Lundgren gets her a whole film. Put on a deep voice without getting a bit Croquet grew like this. Always put on

Sam: the Duke boys, Justin. Awful lot of strep Sal's other throat. Soothing suites available. Well, what a fascinating. What a fascinating guy. We'll have to see if we can find some of those newspaper clippings and put some upon the social media.

Tom: Or, more importantly, a picture of his mullet. I think there are. There are pictures of his mother up.

Sam: How would you know that? It's his mullet, though. And not the mother of some of the famous footballer. That's true, we could go down the rabbit hole with this one.

Tom: You think bullets have a life of their own? Yes. Do you think the bullets are they like ones in Harry Potter? Does the mullet choose the owner, Not the owner. Choose the mullet.

Sam: I think so. I think you have to be one of the chosen few to wear the mullet. I think the mullet is bigger than any man.

Tom: Let's move on. I promise never to do anything sporting

Sam: again. No. You could do sporty things, but you could do sporty things. But just don't try and get me to engage with it. That's just talk out. May talk at me or not and say I'm beautiful. Game goal. I thought the winning team were good.

Tom: I tell you what, Sam. I'm gonna give you a bit of tuition now and I'm gonna give you some help for next time you're walking in the park and you stumble across a game of Sunday football and you feel like you want to stand on the sideline and interact the first thing I would like to shout. I would I would just like you to occasionally shout down the line

Sam: down the line down the

Tom: line. Just draw a line down the Lorries Is you sort of past the pool

Sam: down the line

Tom: forwards and close to the sideline. Basically, you can also shout man on. That's another one. Try that, please.

Sam: Man on.

Tom: Good. Excellent. That was well, that man on in said someone behind you gonna try and tackle you so you can shout my home. That's a good one.

Sam: Certain clubs quite near me where that's also useful phrase to shout at certain times of the night.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, it's on public toilets. Two in the morning when you're walking home from the club on one of your teammates walks into the toilet and you shout manner

Sam: Ah, I'll try that next time you're in this order

Tom: anyway. Sorry, Sam. I'm not going to stop the football references. You go on. What was Who is your con artists?

Sam: Well, today, Tom, I'm going to talk about a chap called Gregor McGregor. Aggregor Magoo. That second part of the name is not true.

Tom: Gregor McGregor McGregor McGrew

Sam: Yeah. One of the trumps and fireman. Along with huge room Barney McGrew, comfortable and drub regroup Greg in the Gregor who? You will be very surprised to learn a Scottish on Dhe, widely considered to be history's greatest con man. But when in Scotland, in 17 86

Tom: weird for a Scottish person to be born in Scott,

Sam: you often find the to correlate. Is it chance? Is it design? Who can say I can't begin to do the math on that? But yes, Scotsman McGregor was born in Scotland, home of the Scots, in 17 86 and had a very adventurous spirit. He joined the British Army at 16 years old by buying himself on officer's job. Just how you got into offices, positions in the army, the time you basically had to buy your way in eBay. Yes, you did. You had to bid on dhe. Better regiments would charge Maur for the better positions, so he paid

Tom: that right

Sam: the air. So he paid 450 pounds to become an ensign, or standard bearer, which is the lowest officer job in the 57th Regiment of foot. That's the equivalent of about 35,000 pounds today that his family put up to get him into the army and get him on the path to being a good, solid man. You could either buy promotions in the Army as you bought your first job, or you could earn them. And very quickly he established himself as being pretty good on Dhe. He was promoted to leftenant within a year before getting a bit bored and paying another 70,000 pounds in today's money to buy himself the rank of captain, which you normally have to wait 5 to 7 years for. So you don't know I'm good at this. I'm taking this seriously. I'm just gonna buy my next job.

Tom: Sam can, you know, help fill that? The British Empire would have been slightly larger had it no had certain systems like this in place, I can't help but feel that it doesn't allow the good to rise to the top.

Sam: I'm not sure there are many people Tom, who would say that the British Empire really needed to be larger. It didn't lack ambition.

Tom: That's what's remarkable. Is that the fact that it was so big and yet it had such a corrupt system in the military? That's bizarre. Never heard of that. Well,

Sam: it's it's kind of genius in a way because what it means is that you have you still have sergeants and you have people within the Army who were very experienced soldiers who had spent a long time there. And the sergeants, the corporal's, that kind of the non commissioned officers who would lead, really lead the men. And then you had toffs looking for glory. Who would sit on horses looking pretty, paying huge amounts of money to the Army for no pay in return, just hope of glory and promotion and getting their names noticed by other people in high society, basically funding the Army. So the Army was funded by people buying the hype A jobs. So in a way, it was a system that kind of work in the very, very senior, very high regiments. They're waas more of a meritocracy. So in the regiment's where it really mattered that you were a good, solid soldier, you would be promoted Maur on the basis off your ability than money. You could still buy your way in, but some of them will be ludicrously expensive. But anyway, so great. A MacGregor very quickly became absolutely obsessed with the idea of rank and having rank and showing off your rank and looking smart. So he was always. And he insisted that every soldier he commanded was always in full dress, uniform, wearing medals, marching around lightly, absolutely owned the place, which caused quite a lot of arguments among his men because, frankly, they didn't always want to be dressed him very uncomfortable for dress uniforms on prancing around wearing medals. It would have made them look stupid

Tom: example of the beach

Sam: scene, for example, in the beach. Yeah, well, no, it was It was the case that you were not allowed out even in your spare time without being in full dress uniform, which made him really very unpopular among his men. But he was obsessed with the idea of rank on dhe. He married a very wealthy heir ess and pissed about in Gibraltar in the Channel Islands with his military unit. Until the Peninsular war kicked off in Portugal, which was one of the early Napoleonic wars on Dhe, Gregor's unit was sent over 18 09 to Portugal, but he very quickly fell out with his superior officers on was shipped off to the Portuguese army, learning the language in getting a bit of a flavor for the lifestyle. But the arguments with his British superiors got so bad that he was essentially forced to quit the army. He more or less got fired and had to sell his officers jobs in 18 10 and returned to Edinburgh with his wife where he began to claim. And this is the first really record of him being a bit of a con man and a bit of a jack. The lad he started claimed that he'd been a kernel, which he hadn't. He was wearing lots of Portuguese medals. He hadn't turned, some of which he just completely made up himself, claim that he was a Portuguese lord, which he wasn't and started swinging around. Remember, in a very, very Gordy gold carriage wearing ridiculous clothes and trying to make a bit of a celebra of himself.

Tom: It's already go back a little bit. He was able to sell his position. So that's 70 grand he invested. He could actually get back.

Sam: Yeah, I got it back

Tom: so he would sell it to some other dumb ass from a private school with wealthy parents. Yeah, that's how it worked. Do we know what do we know what medals he had, what medals he made up.

Sam: So he wore a medal which waas a Portuguese order off. I did have it written in my notes, but I I'm not gonna able to find it now. But I think it was a blue sash with a medal that he wore that was essentially an amalgam of several different Portuguese awards that didn't really exist. Thean Vivid jewel bits and pieces of it did. But the whole thing didn't he was just making it up as he went along.

Tom: Just things he liked like No, I would have. Yeah, order off the Lego. Yes, Order off eating last night's curry takeaway for breakfast.

Sam: We're getting quite an insight into your military career. Now

Tom: what? I would have great report. I almost called them underlings, but I'm not sure that would have developed Report Cripple report with my inferiors with their help. Now, that wouldn't

Sam: That's not

Tom: what's a less condescending term?

Sam: Your subordinate?

Tom: Most of that's a better name. Subordinates. Yeah, I would have great report. With my support,

Sam: you would have the mettle of insulting your subordinates because I would have the big smiley face medal of being very charming to them and treating them as if I respect their opinion. Whilst clearly not.

Tom: Would you allow them to take the uniform off when they get this? Women?

Sam: I would insist on it.

Tom: I have to swim. They wouldn't have to swim in full uniform.

Sam: I would insist on them taking their uniforms, office every available opportunity whilst parading past the queen

Tom: in the way

Sam: of charging the Germans on the Western front in World War

Tom: with nothing but their bare skin helmets. Oh, spots per paraded in front of Her Majesty

Sam: private parts. Put away your private parts.

Tom: Yeah, very good.

Sam: The less said about major hard on, the better

Tom: you'd be the order of the closet.

Sam: Major word. Right. Enough contract. I've got a lot to get through. Most of it's more interesting than this. There was complete. Now I'm going to go back again and again. I've missed it, so, yes, in 18. 10 he's

Tom: your final attempts. Um,

Sam: itwas now even bigger. So in 18. 10.

Tom: So this is your final attempt.

Sam: So in 18 10 Gregor's,

Tom: that's the one that's gonna make the

Sam: left. Yeah, yeah, you utter bastard. Interrupt men 18 10 Greg or McGregor left the British army and returned to Edinburgh with his wife, where he started to claim that he'd been a colonel. War. Lots of Portuguese medals. He hadn't turned. We've done this.

Tom: This is what I have to do every Friday evening. Sound is difficult, isn't it? It's difficult in the evening.

Sam: Uh oh, God. So he was wearing all of these around. So he was swimming around in this gold carriage trying to make a bit of a celebrity of himself, wearing all of these medals. And it just didn't work. No, almost having any of it. Like who is this guy? And to make matters worse, his wife died in 18 11. And in a flash, all of his income was gone. This rich heir ess her family basically cut him off pretty much immediately. They weren't hugely fond of him to begin with. So he had two options to go back to his Scottish clan, which he thought would be incredibly boring and couldn't imagine anything worse or to re join the army. Now it couldn't be the British army because he'd just been fired on. It would pretty quickly get out there that he was faking it as a colonel. They would know pretty quickly that he had never been a curveball. So he went to Venezuela to fight in the War of Independence y Venezuela Seems like a bit of an out. Their choice, particularly for the early 18 hundreds. Venezuela had a very charismatic general who had come to London on being the absolute star off the party. Everyone had wanted to be with him. He had been just the absolute cock of the walk on dso Gregor McGregor thought I'm having a piece of that. I'm gonna go out and join the Venezuelan Army and I'm gonna come back the liberality of my time. I'm going to come back and absolute celebrity and ladies will be swooning over me And I will be rich beyond my wildest dreams.

Tom: Ibaraki, The liberality of my generation. What an outwardly gay piano player. Is that what you're saying? This is

Sam: a man who covered himself in fake medals and sashes. Welles riding around in a golden carriage

Tom: that actually no, that's too

Sam: extravagant. And then there's Gregor MacGregor.

Tom: Yeah s Oh, my Venezuelan Early modern history isn't too hot. What would they seek it? Who they seeking independence from? Was that Portugal, Spain? Or

Sam: it was the Spanish. It was the independence movement was fighting the Spanish royalists, Spanish lead, royalists. And so the whole period in South America this time is incredibly complicated. I tried toe right out some notes in the way that I could explain it, and I just can't. It would take forever. So suffice to say, this shit was going down there is hitting the fan. So in 18 12 Greg all sold everything he owned and headed for South America, announcing himself to the Venezuelan Nationalist forces as a British colonel with a celebrated battle history, which his unit had one in the peninsula war. Two years after he was fired so completely, just making it up as he went along. They believed him on Dhe Hyatt in as a colonel, and he, actually, to be fair to, did very well. He very quickly rose to the rank of general in the Vela Venezuelan Independent Army, mostly because they were losing the war really badly at this point. And he did lots of the clearest offices to replace the ones who getting killed, anti remarried he married a local woman. The tide of the war rose and fell, and he traveled between armies in Venezuela and New Granada and various other places occasionally holidaying in Jamaica, basically making a name for himself. A bit of a journeyman. Yeah, he waas. He was essentially a mercenary who would kind of big up his achievements to his next potential employer. Hop between places, getting work where he could. As a general. He did have some pretty major military victories. He defeated a significantly larger Spanish force in Venezuela in 18 16 whilst trying to retreat through the mountains on This was making the headlines in London, So he was becoming quite well known, and his initial aim of becoming a bit of a celebrity was

Tom: it was happening

Sam: for him. But in 18 17 he committed his first real scam, which was boldly to launch an invasion of Florida with help from the U. S. A three intention of this was to distract the Spanish from South America. So he went to America. He went to the USA and recruited hundreds of men on dhe over 100 and $60,000 in investors loans to fund a private war with promises of land and cash in the newly conquered territories in Florida, which he said would ultimately join the U. S. On the scam. Completely worked. And actually, to be fair, he again had some military success. Is he attacked the pirate cove of Amelia Island in northern Florida in spring 18 17 with just 80 men have managed to seize it from the Spanish garrison Pirate coat. A pirate cove? Yeah, it was It was a pirate cove.

Tom: Why like this? A pirate cove?

Sam: Yeah. So he conquered this pirate cove and then declared this tiny island of three and 1/2 1000 people the independent republic of the Florida's with himself as the head of state. He started paying his men in Florida dollars, which he completely made up on the spot and started writing out himself way. Actually, I owe you five Florida dollars written on the back of a napkin. Yet

Tom: you sit on it. It just

Sam: right in the model U N roll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andi declared the entirety of Florida his domain despite only controlling one town on a tiny island. Most of the support had been promised in the U. S. Never showed up in terms of member. He had all the cash that had been given by the investors. So with a Spanish force assembling Thio retake the island from him. In September 18 17 he and his wife took the cash and jumped on a ship sailing away, shouting goodbye, Goodbye as all the inhabitants of the island and all of his soldiers and subjects hurled insults at him and said, What are you doing? Why are you running away? Eso his kingdom last

Tom: pirates took over,

Sam: actually, the defenders of the island. His army beat the Spanish or four or five times until the Americans stepped in and basically gave the island back. I bet they enjoyed that. Oh, I didn't quite hear what you said, but I I know what the words were. Dirty little bastard. That was so Anyway, he he just took the cash and buggered off, ran off to Jamaica, where he spent quite a lot of the money minting himself lots of medals with the Florida flag that he just made upon them. And the words I came, I saw I conquered and liberty for Florida under the glorious leadership of MacGregor written on them.

Tom: That's genuine. That's what you taking the piss. That's you

Sam: know Those are the medals he had made himself with the $160,000 in American investors. Money. Eight. Stolen bearing $160,000. That's 18 16 money, countless millions of dollars today.

Tom: This guy's got an ego, isn't it?

Sam: That's a bit of an ego. He loved the show. He basically loved to big himself up and sworn in being the big I am because again, as with Kaiser, no one can prove otherwise. So the next few years saw him again working as a mercenary officer and occasionally leading British expeditions to South America against the Spanish. But really, his heart wasn't in it anymore. He he was just in it for the money.

Tom: So he was back in the good books with the British.

Sam: Yeah, they loved him again, but he repeatedly ran away from every fight he got involved in abandoning every every man, every unit he was given command off. He would abandon and just leave him to the Spanish Waas, usually running away in a ship as he done before. He would always literally run to the end of a Harvard jump on the ship in order to sail away.

Tom: You kind of lost his boat orbit. Didn't

Sam: aid lost his mojo. He s so what? What occasion? He even jumped out of the window on a rope made of bedsheets. When in the Spanish launched a surprise attack on his garrison. Fled out to a ship. The garrison thought, our He's gone to get help from the ship and they will fire their cannons at the Spanish on the ship. Just turned around and buggered off and left the entire British Army to their debt. Good

Tom: God, how many times do you get away with this? Before people realize he was just a big cow, I think six, six times he got away with this. More or less. Yeah,

Sam: I just rinsed and repeated until about 18. 20.

Tom: You know, this is sounding awfully like Sam.

Sam: Go on. Say

Tom: it sounded like the Fire Festival about 150 years ago. Yes, that it's an excellent Netflix documentary. It sounds very similar.

Sam: It gets even more like that because in 18 20 found himself in what's known as the Mosquito Coast in Honduras. Doesn't that sound like a lovely place for a holiday, Tom. Nothing sounds more inviting. In the Mosquito Coast.

Tom: I would go to Pirate Cove in preference. I like the idea of Pirate Cove.

Sam: It's my favorite themed restaurant. But he found himself at the court of the Mosquito King, which is a very good name. George Frederick Augustus. He was essentially a local chief who be made a British puppet king. He had no real power. He had no real territory. But that didn't stop him from selling McGregor, an area of jungle the size of Wales in exchange for bits of rum and some jewelry. Very easy to sell him an area the size of Wales because he didn't own it.

Tom: And it was Nobody wanted it anyway because it was just covered in mosquito.

Sam: Well, yeah, the land was absolutely worthless. It was apparently very pretty, but was agriculturally useless, had nothing useful growing in it. And it was completely disease ridden. So of course, what did he do? He named himself for the car. Zeke. The local word meaning chief of a new country. Oh, yes. So he became the Kuzzik of Po. Yes. Which is an incredibly exotic sounding name, especially for a guy who's a bit of a celebrity by this point. So he sailed back to London to start the biggest scam in history.

Tom: She we haven't even started.

Sam: We've not even started the good scam or the really bad scam. It was perfect timing. The Napoleonic Wars had just ended in Europe, so the economy was booming. Rich Brits were looking for new and exciting opportunities, investments and places to spend their money. The newly crowned Kazik up. Oh yes, upon appearing in London, covered in medals from his time in Florida and looking as he always did, incredibly dashing what enormously exciting to them, especially because he was Scottish and so could speak their language and sell his tales. And he became the talk of the town. He was invited to every dinner party to talk about his kingdom, which he promised was a democracy with an army and a civil service. It already had established agriculture. The people, his beloved subjects had waved him away to London as he promised to bring back the cream of European society and technology to revolutionize this brave new world and bring its untold riches tobacco grew, their cotton grew there. The streams ran with gold dust. It was just beautiful. He had flags, commissioned coats of arms, commissioned uniforms designed for all of his imaginary soldiers in his imaginary country. And it was all absolute bollocks. All he had was this jungle. He was given to him by someone who didn't own it. But he went absolutely ham for this, though, and the Brits added up.

Tom: There's a thin line, isn't it? There's a thin line between entrepreneurism and con artistry.

Sam: Yeah, well, thistles The thing. Some people say that he just got over excited and he really wanted This was basically setting the dream. But he opened offices in all major cities throughout the UK selling land in this country that didn't exist. Yeah, that's what he wrote a book he wrote Look Kind of an Anthropological Treaties and Tourist Guide book under the pseudonym of one of his supposed officers. It was a 355 page, leather bound book which he had mass produced, basically advertising the brave new world and the new life in this incredible place with St Joseph. It's great, magnificent capital city with a domed Cathedral.

Tom: Where did he get his money from?

Sam: Well, from rich friends who he was making from going to all of these garters. One particularly wealthy guy, Major John William Richard William John Richardson, Sorry gave him a stately home to use as the embassy for her for this country in return for which he was made the ambassador. So he started to build up a lot of allies selling this country amongst the British aristocracy and British merchants, and the banks could not wait to lend him money. They flocked to offering loans in exchange for land and repayments from tax revenues. He sold on Sze, offering ludicrous returns on investments On Started to sell tickets on ships for settlers. He was promising all of these settlers land which would grow anything under the sun. They'd be rich forever. Hey, particularly being Scottish, targeted his fellow Scottish countryman, which was rather dark because he knew that they trust him more easily. Andi. He managed to fill up seven ships with settlers. Their crews were sent off prepaid in the P A Z in dollars again another currency he created, but which weren't fake this time because such was the fervor around this colony that he created that they were officially minted by the Bank of Scotland as part of a bank loan. So he even got the Bank of Scotland to just invent a new currency and pre paid all of these people in this completely made up currency. And he was making an absolute killing. At this point. He was rolling in it. He was the celebrity he'd always dreamed of being the king of this mythical land. And two ships, in fact, eventually four ships but two ships early on sailed this made up country before the market completely crashed. Basically what happened is the Colombian government's agent in London heard written McGregor a 2,000,000 pound load on behalf of the Colombian government. And this ambassador then died in the Colombian government. Went Oh, shit, What the fuck did we just do? I think they picked up the paperwork and said, We've just lent some bloke for a country that we know because we're Columbia and we know what the countries are around here. We know this place doesn't exist. So the market crashed immediately. The Pleiades and dollar became worthless overnight. So McGregor cut and run and fled to France. But meanwhile, these two ships, when they arrived on the mosquito coast full of Scottish settlers, they found literally nothing but jungle in the ruins of an old settlement, which had been abandoned for decades. And they set about.

Tom: This is the Fire Festival.

Sam: Yeah, it is. It's exactly the same as Fire Festival. Yeah, they set up a camp whilst the ships sailed off to look for help, earned food and supplies from the local government who, they were convinced, still existed. They thought this place was real, that they just landed the ships in the wrong place. And, of course, the settlers just started to die somewhere, eventually rescued by passing British officials and taken to Billy's in British Honduras. But they were all already so sick, and they're in cramped, conditional and small ships, and a lot of died a few days.

Tom: What sort of numbers we talking? Hundreds.

Sam: So 250 people left for the colony. Some stayed in British Honduras, a couple went to America. Only 40 made it back to the UK of the 250 you've gone out,

Tom: and meanwhile, Gregor McGregor just fucks off with fingers in the classic?

Sam: Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah, He and his wife jump on about heads of Paris, where they start the exact same scheme again, just not

Tom: with the same country. They make up another one

Sam: note. They translated the pamphlets into French. His claim was that he had good intentions but that basically the agency's hide in Britain, all of these British nobleman leave it on its side, had bricked him off and taken advantage of him. Which, of course, the French were all too willing to believe that the British nobility had been deceitful and untrustworthy. So the French loved it. He was just about to ship the first French colonists off to South America when, in 18 25 the French government cottoned on to what was happening on Dhe indicted them all for fraud MacGregor and his his accomplices, who come of England with him. McGregor himself went and hid in the French countryside for three months until he was finally found and arrested. But the trial collapsed because he claimed and maintained in the court that he was the king of this land, that he being proclaimed king and chief. And given this country too and it was a land of milk and plenty on the French. Couldn't prove that it wasn't and couldn't prove that these colonists hadn't just been dumped on the coast by some dubious captain in the case collapsed. He absolutely got

Tom: away with it. So what happens to court to Greg, Greg and Ellen? What happened after?

Sam: Well, he

Tom: presumably his reputation was finally rude. Well, no. We run out of places to escape, to

Sam: know he hadn't because news spread in London that his trial in France had collapsed and there was quite a lot of sympathy for him. Some people have believed, including some of the colonists who made it back, argued that his intentions are honest and good. So many people have been scammed by him that they just didn't want to admit that they got it wrong. Admit they've been the victim of a corn on. So he returned to London and incredibly, actually matched same con 1/3 time. The same same country. He raised another 300,000 pounds. The game, by this point was was kind of up. He had to admit that the colony wasn't working as well as he'd hoped.

Tom: The state police

Sam: the and so in 18 38 his wife died on, he decided that he had had it with Britain and actually, South America, where he spent quite a lot of his adult life, was where his heart lay. So he went back to Venezuela in 18 38 on Dhe. As you would expect for a man who is the greatest con artist of all time, he was welcomed as a hero in Venezuela, thanks to his decades of military service, his bold and brave invasion of Florida Onda all of his time in the wars of independence, which had now been won.

Tom: It forgot it was a total wanker. Well,

Sam: they never knew in South America.

Tom: Oh, yeah, get used in

Sam: spread. Youse didn't spread other than in Colombia. Who have they realized? They let this nutter 2,000,000 pounds, but he was given a general's pension on retired, a military hero. When he died in 18 45 he was given a full state funeral, buried in the crypt of the cathedral Venezuela on dhe. There is no mention of his dark secret, and he's still to this day, revered as a hero in Venezuela on dhe. Th